3 ms·

> Just because you lack the imagination or historical understanding to see how else this could have played out doesn't exclude these counterfactuals from possib

> Just because you lack the imagination or historical understanding to see how else this could have played out doesn't exclude these counterfactuals from possibility. Enlighten me, how I lack imagination or historical understanding about my own country that is being invaded right now.

darby_nine 2y ago
[flagged]
- wiseowise 2y ago
  You simplify it too much. There was a million people on maidan in Kyiv. Nation voted for EU - they were done with Russian kleptocrats meddling with Ukrainian politics and influencing country all the time. Looks to me you’re thinking about all of this like it’s some tabletop or RTS game.
  - darby_nine 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - wiseowise 2y ago
      > So does western media. What does our discussion have to do with western media? > That doesn't mean this was smart No offence, but who are you, someone sitting in thousands kilometers away and not knowing an iota about challenges that Ukraine faced since God knows when, to say what is stupid? Democratic revolution to oust Russian politics out of your country is stupid to you? Were American Revolution war and American Civil war stupid? People died, after all. Could’ve stayed colony or kept slaves. > It didn't. Yes it did, lol. And full scale invasion only solidified the victory. Russian language is increasingly vilified, Russian/Soviet symbols are being removed, corruption is being fought, national identity is being restored. It’s going to be nigh impossible to do again what Russians could afford to do in the open for 30 years.
    - throwaway9524 2y ago
      You should travel to parts of the Eastern Europe that used to be under Soviet occupation someday. Share your views on Russia with the locals over beer and you'll find out rather quckly why "blithely trusting the state department" is a hell of a lot better than dealing with the Russians. Not to say that people are wholly uncritical of the US. But having experienced Russia up close it's clear as day what's worse. Also as a reminder Russia could end the war today by withdrawing its armed forces from the internationally recognized territory of Ukraine.
  - dachworker 2y ago
    I don't doubt that a big chunk of Ukraine wanted to join up with the West. After all, we are more prosperous. The question is to what extent that is possible when one considers geopolitical constraints. I think what some people are saying is, Ukrainians would probably not have been for the current situation if they had known in advance. I don't think they would have been for war with Russia, to break away from them. I don't think that's what maidan was about. I think what some people are also saying is that the US knew this would lead to war and pushed Ukraine into it, anyway. And that is also the reason why France and Germany were more reluctant on the matter, because this is not good for us here in Europe. I personally don't know what to think. I think the US framing of the situation is childish: "the Ukrainians wanted to leave and Russia doesn't want them to". As if they wouldn't do exactly the same thing, where they in that situation. Seems to me that you cannot ignore the geopolitics. At the same time, a people have sovereignty over their land and a right to do with it what they please, but that is only an ideal and not true in practice. Well, there is nobody enforcing such ideals so you need to go to war... Even way back before Ukraine, people question why Russia has been kept as an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union. Because they don't submit to the US hegemony? But they could be allies. India doesn't submit either, for that matter, but they are semi-allies. But not Russia. Because? We wouldn't be in the current situation if Russia wasn't antagonized so hard way back then. I think it is very hard to parse objectively what is happening because there is so much propaganda and heated opinions on the topic. And not everyone has the same objectives, and people can always contort themselves to blame everything on those they despise.
    - wiseowise 2y ago
      > I personally don't know what to think. I think the US framing of the situation is childish: "the Ukrainians wanted to leave and Russia doesn't want them to". They’re framing nothing. This is literally what happened. > As if they wouldn't do exactly the same thing, where they in that situation. That’s irrelevant to the current situation. > Even way back before Ukraine, people question why Russia has been kept as an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union. Because they don't submit to the US hegemony? But they could be allies. India doesn't submit either, for that matter, but they are semi-allies. But not Russia. Because? We wouldn't be in the current situation if Russia wasn't antagonized so hard way back then. Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Syria. Constant meddling in business of other post-Soviet republics. Wow, poor Russia being antagonized by evil West! > I think it is very hard to parse objectively what is happening because there is so much propaganda and heated opinions on the topic. Ah, old “hard to know REAL truth”. Straight out of Russia’s metodichka.
  - vasac 2y ago
    Yeah, there were 100 million… They could have waited a year and then won the next election if they thought they had such a clear case. But they didn’t because they weren’t so sure. They chose revolution to overthrow a government elected through regular elections.
    - wiseowise 2y ago
      Russian puppet started shooting students, after that it was start of the end for Yanukovich. At least get your facts straight, tovarisch.
- meindnoch 2y ago
  >Human lives are always worth more than ephemeral states. Death is actually better outcome than living under Russian rule.

darby_nine 2y ago

[flagged]

wiseowise 2y ago
You simplify it too much. There was a million people on maidan in Kyiv. Nation voted for EU - they were done with Russian kleptocrats meddling with Ukrainian politics and influencing country all the time. Looks to me you’re thinking about all of this like it’s some tabletop or RTS game.
- darby_nine 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    > So does western media. What does our discussion have to do with western media? > That doesn't mean this was smart No offence, but who are you, someone sitting in thousands kilometers away and not knowing an iota about challenges that Ukraine faced since God knows when, to say what is stupid? Democratic revolution to oust Russian politics out of your country is stupid to you? Were American Revolution war and American Civil war stupid? People died, after all. Could’ve stayed colony or kept slaves. > It didn't. Yes it did, lol. And full scale invasion only solidified the victory. Russian language is increasingly vilified, Russian/Soviet symbols are being removed, corruption is being fought, national identity is being restored. It’s going to be nigh impossible to do again what Russians could afford to do in the open for 30 years.
  - throwaway9524 2y ago
    You should travel to parts of the Eastern Europe that used to be under Soviet occupation someday. Share your views on Russia with the locals over beer and you'll find out rather quckly why "blithely trusting the state department" is a hell of a lot better than dealing with the Russians. Not to say that people are wholly uncritical of the US. But having experienced Russia up close it's clear as day what's worse. Also as a reminder Russia could end the war today by withdrawing its armed forces from the internationally recognized territory of Ukraine.
- dachworker 2y ago
  I don't doubt that a big chunk of Ukraine wanted to join up with the West. After all, we are more prosperous. The question is to what extent that is possible when one considers geopolitical constraints. I think what some people are saying is, Ukrainians would probably not have been for the current situation if they had known in advance. I don't think they would have been for war with Russia, to break away from them. I don't think that's what maidan was about. I think what some people are also saying is that the US knew this would lead to war and pushed Ukraine into it, anyway. And that is also the reason why France and Germany were more reluctant on the matter, because this is not good for us here in Europe. I personally don't know what to think. I think the US framing of the situation is childish: "the Ukrainians wanted to leave and Russia doesn't want them to". As if they wouldn't do exactly the same thing, where they in that situation. Seems to me that you cannot ignore the geopolitics. At the same time, a people have sovereignty over their land and a right to do with it what they please, but that is only an ideal and not true in practice. Well, there is nobody enforcing such ideals so you need to go to war... Even way back before Ukraine, people question why Russia has been kept as an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union. Because they don't submit to the US hegemony? But they could be allies. India doesn't submit either, for that matter, but they are semi-allies. But not Russia. Because? We wouldn't be in the current situation if Russia wasn't antagonized so hard way back then. I think it is very hard to parse objectively what is happening because there is so much propaganda and heated opinions on the topic. And not everyone has the same objectives, and people can always contort themselves to blame everything on those they despise.
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    > I personally don't know what to think. I think the US framing of the situation is childish: "the Ukrainians wanted to leave and Russia doesn't want them to". They’re framing nothing. This is literally what happened. > As if they wouldn't do exactly the same thing, where they in that situation. That’s irrelevant to the current situation. > Even way back before Ukraine, people question why Russia has been kept as an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union. Because they don't submit to the US hegemony? But they could be allies. India doesn't submit either, for that matter, but they are semi-allies. But not Russia. Because? We wouldn't be in the current situation if Russia wasn't antagonized so hard way back then. Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Syria. Constant meddling in business of other post-Soviet republics. Wow, poor Russia being antagonized by evil West! > I think it is very hard to parse objectively what is happening because there is so much propaganda and heated opinions on the topic. Ah, old “hard to know REAL truth”. Straight out of Russia’s metodichka.
- vasac 2y ago
  Yeah, there were 100 million… They could have waited a year and then won the next election if they thought they had such a clear case. But they didn’t because they weren’t so sure. They chose revolution to overthrow a government elected through regular elections.
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    Russian puppet started shooting students, after that it was start of the end for Yanukovich. At least get your facts straight, tovarisch.
meindnoch 2y ago
>Human lives are always worth more than ephemeral states. Death is actually better outcome than living under Russian rule.