4 ms·

what theft even means any more They dragged the term through different phases, but that’s just projection of will. Theft is undefined for objects with .copy()

by wruza 2y ago

what theft even means any more They dragged the term through different phases, but that’s just projection of will. Theft is undefined for objects with .copy() interface. It’s still there when you look at it. People have to adjust expectations, not laws. Computers replaced computers, now voice acting replaces voice actors. Your popularity doesn’t mean anything really and wouldn’t it be unfair if only popular could spare their jobs.

the_gorilla 2y ago
> Theft is undefined for objects with .copy() interface. > Computers replaced computers, now voice acting replaces voice actors. It's incredible what web development does to someone's ability to communicate ideas.
- ninalanyon 2y ago
  The original meaning of the word computer was a person who calculates. Looks perfectly clear to me.
  - anal_reactor 2y ago
    I have a very funny example of how using outdated words might lead to miscommunication, but unfortunately that particular one could get me banned, so let's just say that I'm a huge fan of picking a version of langauge from one specific time period and sticking to it, instead of having the reader do all the guesswork.
    - rustcleaner 2y ago
      Nothing feels quite like running gay and free with creative language! :^)
  - yallpendantools 2y ago
    > The original meaning of the word computer was a person who calculates. Was that ever so? According to Google Ngrams, "computer" was not really a term until, predictably, around 1950, even though the verb "compute" has been in use throughout history (it comes from the Latin "computare", apparently). That tells me "computer" was never a person, always a machine. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=compute%2Ccomputer&year_start=1500&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=compute%2Ccomp...
    - frisia 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)?useskin=...
    - femto 2y ago
      Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation) The first reference in the Wikipedia article is to the original definition in the Oxford English Dictionary. Dating from 1613, it refers to a person.
    - nkrisc 2y ago
      The first “computers” were people, who computed. And the term was used to mean as much until very recently. > From 1953 to 1958, Johnson worked as a computer,[23] analyzing topics such as gust alleviation for aircraft. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Johnson https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Johnson
- wruza 2y ago
  Or understand ideas. We all web develop sometimes and as the follow up shows, it’s actually your share of web developness in action ;) On a serious note, please refrain from using “webdev makes dumb” theme here. It’s a beaten cliche that does nothing good to any forum. Have a nice day!
  - the_gorilla 2y ago
    No, I don't think I'll be telling nice sounding lies about web development.
d0mine 2y ago
Try singing a song on youtube. See what youtube copyright checker does.
yallpendantools 2y ago
> They dragged the term through different phases, but that’s just projection of will. In other words, that's just the normal lifecycle of words in a language with an active speaker community. In any stage of history, the meaning of words is just the speaker community's projection of will. Best I can do now is acknowledge that what counts as "theft" is a complicated topic and can't be decided by a binary "is said object still there after alleged theft has occurred?". I've benefited from some digital theft, naturally, so I might be biased to uphold my own morality but the kind of theft contemporary AI tech has enabled is something else entirely. Somewhere there is where I draw the line. Recently, I introduced a few friends to the works of digital artist wlop. The immediate reaction was "Is that AI?". I can't help but feel offended in behalf of wlop. It doesn't help that they have made LoRAs out of his work. It's not so much the "theft" of techniques/concepts/etc. that enrages me but rather, the theft of credibility that a human is capable of this output. I imagine Jeff Geerling (and, to a lesser extent, maybe ScarJo) is enraged along similar lines. In this AI summer, other people are fighting for their livelihoods, other people are fighting for their credibility. And, of course, there's an intersection of people whose credibility is their livelihood. Note that in reframing it as theft of credibility, the owning party has been definitely injured to an extent. As in, said object (credibility) is no longer what it once was after alleged theft has occurred. And I'm not trying to state some Universal Truths that I will debate to death. Again the whole point is that what counts as "theft" is a complicated topic. I'm sure if you spend a bit more brainpower, you can find analogies that will make me look like a hypocrite. I'm just seeing this community lately strongly signal towards preserving some "original" meaning of words in the belief that it will solve some problem or another and I'm tired of it; I have similar linguistic thoughts about the whole uproar on the term "hallucination" but that's for another comment thread essay. > People have to adjust expectations, not laws. I know this thread is about theft but this attitude is downright dangerous in general. People should expect laws to adjust, lest they become irrelevant. Quick example: it's not fair to tell workers to adjust their expectation in light of the emergence of the gig economy. Should they just expect their labor to be exploited then, moving forward? I say, absolutely not. Legislation should catch-up to uphold/strengthen labor laws. Replace "gig economy" with "AI" and we are sort-of back on topic.
- the_other 2y ago

by wruza 2y ago

the_gorilla 2y ago

> Theft is undefined for objects with .copy() interface. > Computers replaced computers, now voice acting replaces voice actors. It's incredible what web development does to someone's ability to communicate ideas.

ninalanyon 2y ago
The original meaning of the word computer was a person who calculates. Looks perfectly clear to me.
- anal_reactor 2y ago
  I have a very funny example of how using outdated words might lead to miscommunication, but unfortunately that particular one could get me banned, so let's just say that I'm a huge fan of picking a version of langauge from one specific time period and sticking to it, instead of having the reader do all the guesswork.
  - rustcleaner 2y ago
    Nothing feels quite like running gay and free with creative language! :^)
- yallpendantools 2y ago
  > The original meaning of the word computer was a person who calculates. Was that ever so? According to Google Ngrams, "computer" was not really a term until, predictably, around 1950, even though the verb "compute" has been in use throughout history (it comes from the Latin "computare", apparently). That tells me "computer" was never a person, always a machine. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=compute%2Ccomputer&year_start=1500&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=compute%2Ccomp...
  - frisia 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)?useskin=...
  - femto 2y ago
    Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation) The first reference in the Wikipedia article is to the original definition in the Oxford English Dictionary. Dating from 1613, it refers to a person.
  - nkrisc 2y ago
    The first “computers” were people, who computed. And the term was used to mean as much until very recently. > From 1953 to 1958, Johnson worked as a computer,[23] analyzing topics such as gust alleviation for aircraft. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Johnson https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Johnson
wruza 2y ago
Or understand ideas. We all web develop sometimes and as the follow up shows, it’s actually your share of web developness in action ;) On a serious note, please refrain from using “webdev makes dumb” theme here. It’s a beaten cliche that does nothing good to any forum. Have a nice day!
- the_gorilla 2y ago
  No, I don't think I'll be telling nice sounding lies about web development.

d0mine 2y ago

Try singing a song on youtube. See what youtube copyright checker does.

yallpendantools 2y ago

> They dragged the term through different phases, but that’s just projection of will. In other words, that's just the normal lifecycle of words in a language with an active speaker community. In any stage of history, the meaning of words is just the speaker community's projection of will. Best I can do now is acknowledge that what counts as "theft" is a complicated topic and can't be decided by a binary "is said object still there after alleged theft has occurred?". I've benefited from some digital theft, naturally, so I might be biased to uphold my own morality but the kind of theft contemporary AI tech has enabled is something else entirely. Somewhere there is where I draw the line. Recently, I introduced a few friends to the works of digital artist wlop. The immediate reaction was "Is that AI?". I can't help but feel offended in behalf of wlop. It doesn't help that they have made LoRAs out of his work. It's not so much the "theft" of techniques/concepts/etc. that enrages me but rather, the theft of credibility that a human is capable of this output. I imagine Jeff Geerling (and, to a lesser extent, maybe ScarJo) is enraged along similar lines. In this AI summer, other people are fighting for their livelihoods, other people are fighting for their credibility. And, of course, there's an intersection of people whose credibility is their livelihood. Note that in reframing it as theft of credibility, the owning party has been definitely injured to an extent. As in, said object (credibility) is no longer what it once was after alleged theft has occurred. And I'm not trying to state some Universal Truths that I will debate to death. Again the whole point is that what counts as "theft" is a complicated topic. I'm sure if you spend a bit more brainpower, you can find analogies that will make me look like a hypocrite. I'm just seeing this community lately strongly signal towards preserving some "original" meaning of words in the belief that it will solve some problem or another and I'm tired of it; I have similar linguistic thoughts about the whole uproar on the term "hallucination" but that's for another comment thread essay. > People have to adjust expectations, not laws. I know this thread is about theft but this attitude is downright dangerous in general. People should expect laws to adjust, lest they become irrelevant. Quick example: it's not fair to tell workers to adjust their expectation in light of the emergence of the gig economy. Should they just expect their labor to be exploited then, moving forward? I say, absolutely not. Legislation should catch-up to uphold/strengthen labor laws. Replace "gig economy" with "AI" and we are sort-of back on topic.

the_other 2y ago