7 ms·

Am I missing something? This feels like such a bizarre hill to die on. He's upset that a company offers hosting of his software with a default setting changed.

Am I missing something? This feels like such a bizarre hill to die on. He's upset that a company offers hosting of his software with a default setting changed. I guess, don't have that setting then? There's no mention of the source code being changed or custom patches being applied. So the allegation that it's "something that they’ve chopped up, hacked, butchered to look like WordPress" is maximally overblown. Unless, again, I'm completely missing something.

Kye 2y ago
Automattic's own managed WordPress platform severely restricts features all the way up to the top plan. I guess it's okay for them to do it. edit: I am referring to WordPress.com which is the offering comparable to WP Engine.
- donohoe 2y ago
  I think you need to give more context. I’ve been a WP VIP customer at various points and I don’t think this is true as a general statement. It really depends on context.
  - snowwrestler 2y ago
    I think they are referring to WordPress.com.
- n3storm 2y ago
  Cannot upload own themes or plugins at WordPress.com Also there has been issues for years when trying to move away and transfer __your__ domain to another provider.
  - desas 2y ago
    > Cannot upload own themes or plugins at WordPress.com You can, just not on the free plan, or the two cheapest paid plans.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
addicted 2y ago
Yes, you seem to have the argument backwards. The argument isn’t that “turning off saving revision data” is terrible. That’s not the problem or the argument. The argument is that private equity will use open source, maximize profits from the Labour open source volunteers have done, and minimize costs wherever they can. The “default setting” is an example of this behavior. Also, calling turning off all historical revision data as just “changing a default setting” in a content management system is disingenuous to say the least.
- bastawhiz 2y ago
  > The argument is that private equity will use open source, maximize profits from the Labour open source volunteers have done, and minimize costs wherever they can. Then why isn't WordPress.com completely obliterating WP Engine in sales? Surely if the argument is that WP Engine is bad and cutting corners, and they have their own first party commercial offering, that first party offering is so good that nobody thinks twice about the private equity hosted version?
  - fragmede 2y ago
    Because the market is stupid. Worse is better, planned obsolescence, clickbait, fast fashion; the free market is full of failures. It's not good enough for a competitor to Google's search engine to be 30% better, it needs to be 10x better in order to compete.
    - technion 2y ago
      In this case the market is not stupid. WordPress.com's managed offering is limited enough that most web developers make valid recommendations to avoid it. Wpengine works a lot more the way a WordPress user wants it.
    - bastawhiz 2y ago
      Your argument is perhaps unintentionally implying that WP Engine's offering is 10x better. WP Engine is the competitor. It's ridiculous to suggest WordPress.com wouldn't be the default, obvious choice for hosted/managed WordPress. Put in B2B terms, this is as if AWS only sold managed ElasticSearch and they did it well enough that it forced Elastic to change their licensing (as happened in real life). But of course, WordPress can't change their license because it's too ubiquitous and doing so would be an obvious, massive backfire. If WordPress.com was truly competitive, this whole issue wouldn't even be a discussion. It's middling and expensive. And Mullenweg is upset that people are willing to pay for essentially Lightsail-but-it's-just-WordPress over his own offering.
shortformblog 2y ago
The linked video offers the full context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnI-QcVSwMU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnI-QcVSwMU (Relevant section starting around 10:14) I think he’s using this as one prominent example of overall harm to the space.
wmf 2y ago
Matt is mad that WP Engine is profiting without contributing much back. This "it's not WordPress" seems like a fig leaf on top of that concern.
- bastawhiz 2y ago
  It's his right to feel like that, but it's also WP Engine's right under the WordPress source's license to do what they're doing.
  - b112 2y ago
    As a devil's advocate sort of thing... For no reason I can give you the finger, scream obscenities at you, and there are no legal ramifications. Was I wrong? The legal side is not the end all. Otherwise, why is anyone complaining about Meta's data mining? About the cost of epipens?
    - bastawhiz 2y ago
      The cost of epipens affects someone's ability to not die. Whether WP Engine contributes back to WordPress enough does not. In fact, Mullenweg says WP Engine does contribute back, but not enough, and tries to justify it by saying they've "hacked up" WordPress. The latter statement has no legs to stand on (at least without real evidence). How much is enough? Should WP Engine be fixing bugs that don't affect their customers? Exerting influence by throwing contributors at wordpress to make upstream improvements that benefit WP Engine customers? I suspect if WP Engine did what Mullenweg is indirectly demanding, we'd get a "no not like that!" post.
      - b112 2y ago
        The cost of epipens affects someone's ability to not die. Whether WP Engine contributes back to WordPress enough does not. My example also cited two non-life threatening issues, and discussed legal vs morality. You have not addressed this point, so I'll be more direct about it. Doing something legal doesn't make it OK. In fact doing something legal does not imply right or wrong.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
benjaminwootton 2y ago
If this is their worst complaint about one of WPs biggest hosts then he isn’t doing too badly. I’m not sure if he’s still involved, but the founder Jason Cohen seems very nice and down to earth. I’m sure he would turn the setting back on in 5 minutes if Matt came knocking and this is all there was to it. WP Engines whole reason for being is that open source Wordpress is a car crash to manage. The hacks, the spam, the broken addons on upgrades are in a league of their own. They’ve probably done more to help the platform than hinder it.
- fakedang 2y ago
  Didn't Jason Cohen sell to private equity? Highly recommend reading his smartbear blogs.
  - bluevaletines 2y ago
    Wasn’t Automattic’s last round led by BlackRock?
giancarlostoro 2y ago
A more accurate title would have not claimed its not WordPress, but moreso emphasized that WP Engine does not provide historic record of your blog posts by default, which every other WP host does, because its how WordPress was designed. Weird title, feels misleading.
safety1st 2y ago
He owns a competitor, Wordpress.com. That said, his point is valid. WPEngine is one of the most expensive hosts in the industry yet they meddle with the behavior of WP as well as the underlying PHP and web server and disable a lot of things. Anyone who would like to build a website on WPEngine is advised to read: https://wpengine.com/support/platform-settings/ https://wpengine.com/support/platform-settings/ And that's just the stuff they admit to. The revisions being pulled out are the most egregious I would say. Revisions are an insanely important feature for some publishers, we've had enterprise customers who had to fight tooth and nail to get this turned back on and paid an arm and a leg for it, this would not have been a problem on any other WP host I'm aware of. Their 'long query governor' can be very frustrating and in my experience, contrary to this document it cannot be fully disabled. All these restrictions have crept in over the last few years. WP Engine pulled the usual trick of finding ways to lock people in, and then reducing service to increase margins.
- snowwrestler 2y ago
  He also owns WP VIP, which is much more expensive (and exclusive) than WP Engine. WP Engine is popular because they hit a sweet spot of automation, capability, and price. That means some things are turned off or tuned. In my experience, WP Engine generally has made good choices there. That said, they are choices that won’t be perfect for everyone. > we've had enterprise customers who had to fight tooth and nail to get this turned back on and paid an arm and a leg for it, this would not have been a problem on any other WP host I'm aware of. Then just move those sites to another host? Why would you bother fighting and paying for this? I have 3 Wordpress sites that are too complex for WP Engine and they are hosted elsewhere. And yes, it’s more expensive than WP Engine, but if a site is truly “enterprise” then the difference is not material.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  > disable a lot of things Like how wordpress.com disables stats unless you're on a premium tier? Or like how wordpress.com disables plugins entirely unless you're on another premium tier? That kind of disabling of things?
  - 2y ago
sfmike 2y ago
Agreed this is a shocking amount of cognitive dissonance.

Kye 2y ago

Automattic's own managed WordPress platform severely restricts features all the way up to the top plan. I guess it's okay for them to do it. edit: I am referring to WordPress.com which is the offering comparable to WP Engine.

donohoe 2y ago
I think you need to give more context. I’ve been a WP VIP customer at various points and I don’t think this is true as a general statement. It really depends on context.
- snowwrestler 2y ago
  I think they are referring to WordPress.com.
n3storm 2y ago
Cannot upload own themes or plugins at WordPress.com Also there has been issues for years when trying to move away and transfer __your__ domain to another provider.
- desas 2y ago
  > Cannot upload own themes or plugins at WordPress.com You can, just not on the free plan, or the two cheapest paid plans.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

addicted 2y ago

Yes, you seem to have the argument backwards. The argument isn’t that “turning off saving revision data” is terrible. That’s not the problem or the argument. The argument is that private equity will use open source, maximize profits from the Labour open source volunteers have done, and minimize costs wherever they can. The “default setting” is an example of this behavior. Also, calling turning off all historical revision data as just “changing a default setting” in a content management system is disingenuous to say the least.

bastawhiz 2y ago
> The argument is that private equity will use open source, maximize profits from the Labour open source volunteers have done, and minimize costs wherever they can. Then why isn't WordPress.com completely obliterating WP Engine in sales? Surely if the argument is that WP Engine is bad and cutting corners, and they have their own first party commercial offering, that first party offering is so good that nobody thinks twice about the private equity hosted version?
- fragmede 2y ago
  Because the market is stupid. Worse is better, planned obsolescence, clickbait, fast fashion; the free market is full of failures. It's not good enough for a competitor to Google's search engine to be 30% better, it needs to be 10x better in order to compete.
  - technion 2y ago
    In this case the market is not stupid. WordPress.com's managed offering is limited enough that most web developers make valid recommendations to avoid it. Wpengine works a lot more the way a WordPress user wants it.
  - bastawhiz 2y ago
    Your argument is perhaps unintentionally implying that WP Engine's offering is 10x better. WP Engine is the competitor. It's ridiculous to suggest WordPress.com wouldn't be the default, obvious choice for hosted/managed WordPress. Put in B2B terms, this is as if AWS only sold managed ElasticSearch and they did it well enough that it forced Elastic to change their licensing (as happened in real life). But of course, WordPress can't change their license because it's too ubiquitous and doing so would be an obvious, massive backfire. If WordPress.com was truly competitive, this whole issue wouldn't even be a discussion. It's middling and expensive. And Mullenweg is upset that people are willing to pay for essentially Lightsail-but-it's-just-WordPress over his own offering.

shortformblog 2y ago

The linked video offers the full context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnI-QcVSwMU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnI-QcVSwMU (Relevant section starting around 10:14) I think he’s using this as one prominent example of overall harm to the space.

wmf 2y ago

Matt is mad that WP Engine is profiting without contributing much back. This "it's not WordPress" seems like a fig leaf on top of that concern.

bastawhiz 2y ago
It's his right to feel like that, but it's also WP Engine's right under the WordPress source's license to do what they're doing.
- b112 2y ago
  As a devil's advocate sort of thing... For no reason I can give you the finger, scream obscenities at you, and there are no legal ramifications. Was I wrong? The legal side is not the end all. Otherwise, why is anyone complaining about Meta's data mining? About the cost of epipens?
  - bastawhiz 2y ago
    The cost of epipens affects someone's ability to not die. Whether WP Engine contributes back to WordPress enough does not. In fact, Mullenweg says WP Engine does contribute back, but not enough, and tries to justify it by saying they've "hacked up" WordPress. The latter statement has no legs to stand on (at least without real evidence). How much is enough? Should WP Engine be fixing bugs that don't affect their customers? Exerting influence by throwing contributors at wordpress to make upstream improvements that benefit WP Engine customers? I suspect if WP Engine did what Mullenweg is indirectly demanding, we'd get a "no not like that!" post.
    - b112 2y ago
      The cost of epipens affects someone's ability to not die. Whether WP Engine contributes back to WordPress enough does not. My example also cited two non-life threatening issues, and discussed legal vs morality. You have not addressed this point, so I'll be more direct about it. Doing something legal doesn't make it OK. In fact doing something legal does not imply right or wrong.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

benjaminwootton 2y ago

If this is their worst complaint about one of WPs biggest hosts then he isn’t doing too badly. I’m not sure if he’s still involved, but the founder Jason Cohen seems very nice and down to earth. I’m sure he would turn the setting back on in 5 minutes if Matt came knocking and this is all there was to it. WP Engines whole reason for being is that open source Wordpress is a car crash to manage. The hacks, the spam, the broken addons on upgrades are in a league of their own. They’ve probably done more to help the platform than hinder it.

fakedang 2y ago
Didn't Jason Cohen sell to private equity? Highly recommend reading his smartbear blogs.
- bluevaletines 2y ago
  Wasn’t Automattic’s last round led by BlackRock?

giancarlostoro 2y ago

A more accurate title would have not claimed its not WordPress, but moreso emphasized that WP Engine does not provide historic record of your blog posts by default, which every other WP host does, because its how WordPress was designed. Weird title, feels misleading.

safety1st 2y ago

He owns a competitor, Wordpress.com. That said, his point is valid. WPEngine is one of the most expensive hosts in the industry yet they meddle with the behavior of WP as well as the underlying PHP and web server and disable a lot of things. Anyone who would like to build a website on WPEngine is advised to read: https://wpengine.com/support/platform-settings/ https://wpengine.com/support/platform-settings/ And that's just the stuff they admit to. The revisions being pulled out are the most egregious I would say. Revisions are an insanely important feature for some publishers, we've had enterprise customers who had to fight tooth and nail to get this turned back on and paid an arm and a leg for it, this would not have been a problem on any other WP host I'm aware of. Their 'long query governor' can be very frustrating and in my experience, contrary to this document it cannot be fully disabled. All these restrictions have crept in over the last few years. WP Engine pulled the usual trick of finding ways to lock people in, and then reducing service to increase margins.

snowwrestler 2y ago
He also owns WP VIP, which is much more expensive (and exclusive) than WP Engine. WP Engine is popular because they hit a sweet spot of automation, capability, and price. That means some things are turned off or tuned. In my experience, WP Engine generally has made good choices there. That said, they are choices that won’t be perfect for everyone. > we've had enterprise customers who had to fight tooth and nail to get this turned back on and paid an arm and a leg for it, this would not have been a problem on any other WP host I'm aware of. Then just move those sites to another host? Why would you bother fighting and paying for this? I have 3 Wordpress sites that are too complex for WP Engine and they are hosted elsewhere. And yes, it’s more expensive than WP Engine, but if a site is truly “enterprise” then the difference is not material.
FireBeyond 2y ago
> disable a lot of things Like how wordpress.com disables stats unless you're on a premium tier? Or like how wordpress.com disables plugins entirely unless you're on another premium tier? That kind of disabling of things?
- 2y ago

sfmike 2y ago

Agreed this is a shocking amount of cognitive dissonance.