4 ms·

But aren't there artisanal attorney's? There are some in specialized areas, perhaps even inside a specialized area there are a few firms that are known to be a

But aren't there artisanal attorney's? There are some in specialized areas, perhaps even inside a specialized area there are a few firms that are known to be at the top, and find creative solutions to problems. They aren't all Law-and-Order. Same with accountants. Sure, it's all number crunching. But then why do some become the top business leaders, the CEO's. Maybe because in that field, being a top artisan and able to play with financial instruments, allows you to build a business. (and I'm playing devils advocate for the small percentage of accountants/business that are actually trying to build something, not just playing with money to bilk people)

mustache_kimono 2y ago
> But aren't there artisanal attorney's? Not in the way there are artisanal bread-makers. See the linked article. > There are some in specialized areas Let's presume the following definition: artisanal: (of a product, especially food or drink) made in a traditional or non-mechanized way. I am saying -- there is no attorney marketing their unique skill with the Smith Corona Galaxie or with a quill. Instead, you probably want them to write a brief for you and don't particularly care how they physically do it.
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  I guess by this argument, writes/authors also cannot be 'artisanal'? This seems like we are instead discussing a narrow definition of 'artisanal'. Where I was taking more broad definition of someone at the top of their 'craft', an expert with deep knowledge of a specialized area.
  - mustache_kimono 2y ago
    > This seems like we are instead discussing a narrow definition of 'artisanal'. Perhaps see the article. This is the definition which is most like the definition it uses.
    - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
      "Perhaps see the article" Are you joking, it was 2 paragraphs. And did not offer any definition. You are reading into it you're own internal monologue, and thinking the article stated more than it did. So if we go by the article using example of 'making a table', you could say writers/authors/accountants would NOT be artisans. Since they are not physically crafting something. or If it is more about "enjoy the process, ... , improve yourself, learn new things", then it is very much more general and includes many fields.
      - mustache_kimono 2y ago
        > You are reading into it you're own internal monologue, and thinking the article stated more than it did. No, I'm reading critically. Just because an article does not readily offer up a definition, it does not mean it isn't working with one. However, I'll try to be intellectually charitable, here, and say it's plausible a reader could feel the article unhelpfully conflates many definitions of "artisan". Unfortunately, all such definitions don't make much sense in the context of programming. What's wrong is not the concluding sentiment of "enjoy the process, ... , improve yourself, learn new things", it's that "artisan", even in its many definitions, doesn't touch upon those noble sentiments. Attorneys and programmers simply aren't artisans, even if they enjoy their process, and improving themselves, and learning new things, and your insistence to the contrary is self-aggrandizement. That isn't to say I would limit "artisanal" to the physical crafts. I might extend it to any endeavor where the process is part of our use of the product. Like -- I may know this or that writer drinks 20 year old Scotch, and smokes only three cigars a day, while he types at exactly 45 words per minute on his decades old Smith Corona. I can understand being romantically engaged by that process. However, while this kind of process might be important to our enjoyment of that literature, is is almost entirely unimportant to our use of software, because the artifact is still what is most important, by a mile. I couldn't care less whether a game designer copied a method from Boost or wrote it from scratch him/herself, just as, I couldn't care less whether my attorney saw the face of God after smelling the dust mites in the Westlaw Reporters at the law library. The romance of the "artisan" is almost entirely incoherent in this context. It's why "I am an Artisanal Attorney (because I make my own paper and write briefs with a quill)" is so funny. Do me a favor and try to write your own. "I am an Artisanal Programmer (because I do all my Objective C programming on a NeXTcube)..."

mustache_kimono 2y ago

> But aren't there artisanal attorney's? Not in the way there are artisanal bread-makers. See the linked article. > There are some in specialized areas Let's presume the following definition: artisanal: (of a product, especially food or drink) made in a traditional or non-mechanized way. I am saying -- there is no attorney marketing their unique skill with the Smith Corona Galaxie or with a quill. Instead, you probably want them to write a brief for you and don't particularly care how they physically do it.

FrustratedMonky 2y ago
I guess by this argument, writes/authors also cannot be 'artisanal'? This seems like we are instead discussing a narrow definition of 'artisanal'. Where I was taking more broad definition of someone at the top of their 'craft', an expert with deep knowledge of a specialized area.
- mustache_kimono 2y ago
  > This seems like we are instead discussing a narrow definition of 'artisanal'. Perhaps see the article. This is the definition which is most like the definition it uses.
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
    "Perhaps see the article" Are you joking, it was 2 paragraphs. And did not offer any definition. You are reading into it you're own internal monologue, and thinking the article stated more than it did. So if we go by the article using example of 'making a table', you could say writers/authors/accountants would NOT be artisans. Since they are not physically crafting something. or If it is more about "enjoy the process, ... , improve yourself, learn new things", then it is very much more general and includes many fields.
    - mustache_kimono 2y ago
      > You are reading into it you're own internal monologue, and thinking the article stated more than it did. No, I'm reading critically. Just because an article does not readily offer up a definition, it does not mean it isn't working with one. However, I'll try to be intellectually charitable, here, and say it's plausible a reader could feel the article unhelpfully conflates many definitions of "artisan". Unfortunately, all such definitions don't make much sense in the context of programming. What's wrong is not the concluding sentiment of "enjoy the process, ... , improve yourself, learn new things", it's that "artisan", even in its many definitions, doesn't touch upon those noble sentiments. Attorneys and programmers simply aren't artisans, even if they enjoy their process, and improving themselves, and learning new things, and your insistence to the contrary is self-aggrandizement. That isn't to say I would limit "artisanal" to the physical crafts. I might extend it to any endeavor where the process is part of our use of the product. Like -- I may know this or that writer drinks 20 year old Scotch, and smokes only three cigars a day, while he types at exactly 45 words per minute on his decades old Smith Corona. I can understand being romantically engaged by that process. However, while this kind of process might be important to our enjoyment of that literature, is is almost entirely unimportant to our use of software, because the artifact is still what is most important, by a mile. I couldn't care less whether a game designer copied a method from Boost or wrote it from scratch him/herself, just as, I couldn't care less whether my attorney saw the face of God after smelling the dust mites in the Westlaw Reporters at the law library. The romance of the "artisan" is almost entirely incoherent in this context. It's why "I am an Artisanal Attorney (because I make my own paper and write briefs with a quill)" is so funny. Do me a favor and try to write your own. "I am an Artisanal Programmer (because I do all my Objective C programming on a NeXTcube)..."