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I mentioned before that I don't agree with how Brazil is going about this situation if you believe Musk's telling of the events but it is also impossible to bel

I mentioned before that I don't agree with how Brazil is going about this situation if you believe Musk's telling of the events but it is also impossible to believe that Musk is some free speech warrior given how readily he complies with the demands of countries like Turkey and India so I'm still trying to understand what exactly is the straw that broke the camel's back for Musk. Was it that he just didn't like his representation being allegedly threatened with jail?

ivewonyoung 2y ago
> but it is also impossible to believe that Musk is some free speech warrior given how readily he complies with the demands of countries like Turkey and India He didn't give up readily, those countries passed laws and even then Twitter sued the Indian government. "India calls X a 'habitual non-compliant platform'" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-66805347 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-66805347 People only think he gave up readily in India because of the all the echo chamber comments repeating misinformation to make Musk look bad. > I'm still trying to understand what exactly is the straw that broke the camel's back for Musk. Was it that he just didn't like his representation being allegedly threatened with jail He felt that the judge's secret orders weren't lawful in Brazil, unlike in other countries.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- p_j_w 2y ago
  > Twitter sued the Indian government. That happened before Musk bought Twitter.
tux3 2y ago
I think Musk is just selective in the causes he finds himself wanting to be a free speech warrior for. Free speech for me and mine, all others pay cash
loceng 2y ago
Have you tried thinking of his actions through a more than black and white perspective, from a military strategic perspective? E.g. Is it better for all Brazilians if there's a platform they are all already organized/organizing on to still have access to it, or none of them have access to it?
- mdhb 2y ago
  Politely… what the hell are you talking about? You think Twitter is some tool of the revolution of Brazil because they had a legal ruling against Elon. Surely I must be misinterpreting what you’re saying here.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    They’re saying Musk may be acting pragmatically in caving. By standing his ground he denies Brazilians a platform on which to organise. I think it’s bunk to think Musk cares about ordinary Brazilians. But it’s a coherent argument.
    - mdhb 2y ago
      Thinking there is going to be some kind of revolution because of Elon though is just underpants on the head kind of crazy to even suggest.
      - loceng 2y ago
        What about what the Twitter Files exposed?
    - anigbrowl 2y ago
      It's also bunk in that Twitter is not the only social media platform in Brazil.
      - loceng 2y ago
        That are willing to take at least an initial stand against government's overreach/alleged censorship attempts?
giraffe_lady 2y ago
It's because the ones in trouble are right wing extremists. He's extremely consistent in his support and decisions on this.
- ivewonyoung 2y ago
  Not true. He tried hard to protect left wing and left wing extremist free speech too. "India calls X a 'habitual non-compliant platform'" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-66805347 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-66805347 He got fined by India and lost money for trying to protect anti-right wing free speech.
  - andrepd 2y ago
    > He tried hard to protect left wing and left wing extremist free speech too. Can you give concrete examples of this?
    - ripjaygn 2y ago
      Modi tried to censor left wingers' speech, Twitter refused and sued the Indian government. It's in the linked BBC article.
      - phatfish 2y ago
        "The instances cited by the government took place before X was acquired by billionaire Elon Musk in 2022. Under Musk's leadership, the company has complied with takedown orders." Twitter refused pre-Musk, X doesn't seem to have a problem doing what Modi says as far as I can tell.
        ivewonyoung 2y ago
        No, the Twitter lawsuit continued under Musk. The court fine was under Musk.
        2y ago
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> I'm still trying to understand what exactly is the straw that broke the camel's back for Musk Moraes finding Starlink and Twitter under common control, which they technically are, may have been it. The unspoken threat being sanctions on Tesla, Musk’s dominant source of liquidity and a levered position, both for sales and raw materials exports. More than its direct effects, the contagion risks of that strategy could constrain Musk if e.g. the EU played hardball.
- gwern 2y ago
  Musk has long enjoyed the benefits of treating his empire as a conglomerate, without the costs of things like shared liability, doing things like casually reusing Tesla engineers in Twitter or sending Twitter's GPUs to X.ai, and daring shareholders to do anything about it. Now that he's gone to war with the establishment, he may find that the blind eye turned to these sorts of things in the past is no longer going to be so blind; it's not like that sort of bait-and-switch or diffusion of responsibility is novel, and the legal system is well-equipped to attack it in more criminal settings. And Moraes seems to be showing that it works: similar to how Musk is deathly silent about the CCP, even Brazil has enough muscle to bring him to heel, so you can bet the EU is watching with great interest indeed. Picking a fight he couldn't win with Moraes, and showing everyone else the way to deal with him, may turn out to have been his biggest mistake since perhaps signing the iron-clad deal to buy Twitter itself.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > sending Twitter's GPUs to X.ai, and daring shareholders to do anything about it Or lenders.
    - alemanek 2y ago
      It was actually worse than that. It was Tesla’s GPUs and the board refused to even address it. I was actually a bit surprised that something hasn’t come of that yet.
  - cjbgkagh 2y ago
summerlight 2y ago
It's pretty simple; he doesn't really have a chance against strong, authoritarianism governments which doesn't accept any sort of challenges so he typically complies to them without any questions. In Brazil, He initially seem to think that there's a good chance to win if he escalates it to a political fight but now he's slowly realizing that there's no solid political ground for him (especially as a foreigner) when he crossed the line against the Supreme Court, the highest constitutional authority.
- hexage1814 2y ago
  >he doesn't really have a chance against strong, authoritarianism governments I think Musk just realized Brazil was one those governments. Honestly, to any foreigner wanting to learn what is going in the country, take a look at Glenn Greenwald coverage on Twitter, Gleen lives in Brazil and is one of the few journalists talking about what is happening in the country. The amount of crimes the Supreme Court is committing every single day is unbelievable. There is no due process.
  - luizfzs 2y ago
    The only democratic way for a foreign agent to meddle in another country's politics is by being elected. Everything else is just bullshit. What you are saying is that anyone can buy a media platform, whatever platform it is, and play 'arbiter' of truth? Because that's he is doing. He has no right to defy a judge's ruling. He's not a Brazilian citizen. He has no legal representation there. His company has no legal representation there. His only standing is his ego, which is pretty fragile, given how much of a cry-baby he is.
    - hexage1814 2y ago
      Many people suffer from some sort of Musk derangement syndrome and put way too much focused on him to avoid discussing the facts of this case. Because they know the facts aren't on their side. They make this to avoid discussing that the actions of the Brazilian Supreme Court were actually illegal. It's not him "playing arbiter of truth", you will find countless brazilian legal experts, such as Sebastião Coelho da Silva, saying that what the court has been doing in the last 4 or 5 years is totally illegal. For instance, they have no power to open an investigation where they are the victim, the investigator, and judge, all in the same time and figure to go after random people around the country. Brazilian constitution doesn't allow prior censorship (which is what happens when you block someone's profile on social media, you block the things they would say in the future). The 8/1 rioters shouldn't been tried by the highest court because they have no legislative immunity, etc, etc. Crimes and more crimes. Regardless of anything, refusing to obey those censorship orders coming from Brazilian Supreme Court were the morally right thing to do.
acchow 2y ago
Elon has been very clear about this: he follows the laws of each country. That is, if the government wants to restrict free speech, they must pass laws (or the equivalent in court) to do so and Twitter will follow their laws. If their government wants to act in contrast to its own laws, then Elon will fight them. He’s not trying to uphold some universal free speech liberty.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  This doesn't track with how he arbitrarily bans people he doesn't like on Twitter. ElonJet, journalist, and people who campaign for Harris all come to mind. Nothing they did was against the law.
  - acchow 2y ago
    He himself is not a government so he does not hold himself accountable to the same free speech laws. But he holds governments to their own laws. That is, he will comply with government censorship requests if they are within the bounds of their own laws.
    - BadHumans 2y ago
      Yet he is always talking about how Twitter is a bastion of free speech. Sounds like he's a liar.
- raydev 2y ago
  Did Brazil change its own laws in the last few weeks?
- phatfish 2y ago
  A rouge billionaire with a popular social media platform might just be what is needed to get governments to properly regulate these sites that are the modern equivalent old school media companies, but are held to much lower standards.
- vitorgrs 2y ago
  There was no laws change since the block have been made.
ElonChrist 2y ago
[dead]

ivewonyoung 2y ago

> but it is also impossible to believe that Musk is some free speech warrior given how readily he complies with the demands of countries like Turkey and India He didn't give up readily, those countries passed laws and even then Twitter sued the Indian government. "India calls X a 'habitual non-compliant platform'" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-66805347 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-66805347 People only think he gave up readily in India because of the all the echo chamber comments repeating misinformation to make Musk look bad. > I'm still trying to understand what exactly is the straw that broke the camel's back for Musk. Was it that he just didn't like his representation being allegedly threatened with jail He felt that the judge's secret orders weren't lawful in Brazil, unlike in other countries.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
p_j_w 2y ago
> Twitter sued the Indian government. That happened before Musk bought Twitter.

tux3 2y ago

I think Musk is just selective in the causes he finds himself wanting to be a free speech warrior for. Free speech for me and mine, all others pay cash

loceng 2y ago

Have you tried thinking of his actions through a more than black and white perspective, from a military strategic perspective? E.g. Is it better for all Brazilians if there's a platform they are all already organized/organizing on to still have access to it, or none of them have access to it?

mdhb 2y ago
Politely… what the hell are you talking about? You think Twitter is some tool of the revolution of Brazil because they had a legal ruling against Elon. Surely I must be misinterpreting what you’re saying here.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  They’re saying Musk may be acting pragmatically in caving. By standing his ground he denies Brazilians a platform on which to organise. I think it’s bunk to think Musk cares about ordinary Brazilians. But it’s a coherent argument.
  - mdhb 2y ago
    Thinking there is going to be some kind of revolution because of Elon though is just underpants on the head kind of crazy to even suggest.
    - loceng 2y ago
      What about what the Twitter Files exposed?
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    It's also bunk in that Twitter is not the only social media platform in Brazil.
    - loceng 2y ago
      That are willing to take at least an initial stand against government's overreach/alleged censorship attempts?

giraffe_lady 2y ago

It's because the ones in trouble are right wing extremists. He's extremely consistent in his support and decisions on this.

ivewonyoung 2y ago
Not true. He tried hard to protect left wing and left wing extremist free speech too. "India calls X a 'habitual non-compliant platform'" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-66805347 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-66805347 He got fined by India and lost money for trying to protect anti-right wing free speech.
- andrepd 2y ago
  > He tried hard to protect left wing and left wing extremist free speech too. Can you give concrete examples of this?
  - ripjaygn 2y ago
    Modi tried to censor left wingers' speech, Twitter refused and sued the Indian government. It's in the linked BBC article.
    - phatfish 2y ago
      "The instances cited by the government took place before X was acquired by billionaire Elon Musk in 2022. Under Musk's leadership, the company has complied with takedown orders." Twitter refused pre-Musk, X doesn't seem to have a problem doing what Modi says as far as I can tell.
      - ivewonyoung 2y ago
        No, the Twitter lawsuit continued under Musk. The court fine was under Musk.
        2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> I'm still trying to understand what exactly is the straw that broke the camel's back for Musk Moraes finding Starlink and Twitter under common control, which they technically are, may have been it. The unspoken threat being sanctions on Tesla, Musk’s dominant source of liquidity and a levered position, both for sales and raw materials exports. More than its direct effects, the contagion risks of that strategy could constrain Musk if e.g. the EU played hardball.

gwern 2y ago
Musk has long enjoyed the benefits of treating his empire as a conglomerate, without the costs of things like shared liability, doing things like casually reusing Tesla engineers in Twitter or sending Twitter's GPUs to X.ai, and daring shareholders to do anything about it. Now that he's gone to war with the establishment, he may find that the blind eye turned to these sorts of things in the past is no longer going to be so blind; it's not like that sort of bait-and-switch or diffusion of responsibility is novel, and the legal system is well-equipped to attack it in more criminal settings. And Moraes seems to be showing that it works: similar to how Musk is deathly silent about the CCP, even Brazil has enough muscle to bring him to heel, so you can bet the EU is watching with great interest indeed. Picking a fight he couldn't win with Moraes, and showing everyone else the way to deal with him, may turn out to have been his biggest mistake since perhaps signing the iron-clad deal to buy Twitter itself.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > sending Twitter's GPUs to X.ai, and daring shareholders to do anything about it Or lenders.
  - alemanek 2y ago
    It was actually worse than that. It was Tesla’s GPUs and the board refused to even address it. I was actually a bit surprised that something hasn’t come of that yet.
- cjbgkagh 2y ago

summerlight 2y ago

It's pretty simple; he doesn't really have a chance against strong, authoritarianism governments which doesn't accept any sort of challenges so he typically complies to them without any questions. In Brazil, He initially seem to think that there's a good chance to win if he escalates it to a political fight but now he's slowly realizing that there's no solid political ground for him (especially as a foreigner) when he crossed the line against the Supreme Court, the highest constitutional authority.

hexage1814 2y ago
>he doesn't really have a chance against strong, authoritarianism governments I think Musk just realized Brazil was one those governments. Honestly, to any foreigner wanting to learn what is going in the country, take a look at Glenn Greenwald coverage on Twitter, Gleen lives in Brazil and is one of the few journalists talking about what is happening in the country. The amount of crimes the Supreme Court is committing every single day is unbelievable. There is no due process.
- luizfzs 2y ago
  The only democratic way for a foreign agent to meddle in another country's politics is by being elected. Everything else is just bullshit. What you are saying is that anyone can buy a media platform, whatever platform it is, and play 'arbiter' of truth? Because that's he is doing. He has no right to defy a judge's ruling. He's not a Brazilian citizen. He has no legal representation there. His company has no legal representation there. His only standing is his ego, which is pretty fragile, given how much of a cry-baby he is.
  - hexage1814 2y ago
    Many people suffer from some sort of Musk derangement syndrome and put way too much focused on him to avoid discussing the facts of this case. Because they know the facts aren't on their side. They make this to avoid discussing that the actions of the Brazilian Supreme Court were actually illegal. It's not him "playing arbiter of truth", you will find countless brazilian legal experts, such as Sebastião Coelho da Silva, saying that what the court has been doing in the last 4 or 5 years is totally illegal. For instance, they have no power to open an investigation where they are the victim, the investigator, and judge, all in the same time and figure to go after random people around the country. Brazilian constitution doesn't allow prior censorship (which is what happens when you block someone's profile on social media, you block the things they would say in the future). The 8/1 rioters shouldn't been tried by the highest court because they have no legislative immunity, etc, etc. Crimes and more crimes. Regardless of anything, refusing to obey those censorship orders coming from Brazilian Supreme Court were the morally right thing to do.

acchow 2y ago

Elon has been very clear about this: he follows the laws of each country. That is, if the government wants to restrict free speech, they must pass laws (or the equivalent in court) to do so and Twitter will follow their laws. If their government wants to act in contrast to its own laws, then Elon will fight them. He’s not trying to uphold some universal free speech liberty.

BadHumans 2y ago
This doesn't track with how he arbitrarily bans people he doesn't like on Twitter. ElonJet, journalist, and people who campaign for Harris all come to mind. Nothing they did was against the law.
- acchow 2y ago
  He himself is not a government so he does not hold himself accountable to the same free speech laws. But he holds governments to their own laws. That is, he will comply with government censorship requests if they are within the bounds of their own laws.
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    Yet he is always talking about how Twitter is a bastion of free speech. Sounds like he's a liar.
raydev 2y ago
Did Brazil change its own laws in the last few weeks?
phatfish 2y ago
A rouge billionaire with a popular social media platform might just be what is needed to get governments to properly regulate these sites that are the modern equivalent old school media companies, but are held to much lower standards.
vitorgrs 2y ago
There was no laws change since the block have been made.

ElonChrist 2y ago

[dead]