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This primarily exists to take care of a fundamental issue in Docker Swarm (Kamal's orchestrator of choice) where replacing containers of a service disrupts traf

This primarily exists to take care of a fundamental issue in Docker Swarm (Kamal's orchestrator of choice) where replacing containers of a service disrupts traffic. We had the same problem (when building JAMStack servers at Cloud 66) and used Caddy instead of writing our own proxy and also looked at Traefik which would have been just as suitable. I don't know why Kamal chose Swarm over k8s or k3s (simplicity perhaps?) but then, complexity needs a home, you can push it around but cannot hide it, hence a home grown proxy. I have not tried Kamal proxy to know, but I am highly skeptical of something like this, because I am pretty sure I will be chasing it for support for anything from WebSockets to SSE, to HTTP/3 to various types of compression and encryption.

jauntywundrkind 2y ago
Kamal feels built around the premise that "Kubernetes is too complicated" (after Basecamp got burned by some hired help), and from that justification it goes out and recreates a sizable chunk of the things Kubernetes does. Your list of things a reverse proxy might do is a good example to me of how I expect this to go: what starts out as an ambition to be simple inevitably has to grow & grow more of complexity it sought to avoid. Part of me strongly thinks we need competition & need other things trying to create broad ideally extensible ways or running systems. But a huge part of me sees Kamal & thinks, man, this is a lot of work being done only to have to keep walking backwards into the complexity they were trying to avoid. Usually second system syndrome is the first system being simple the second being overly complicated, and on the tin the case is inverse, but man, the competency of Kube & it's flexibility/adaptability as being a framework for Desired State Management really shows through for me.
- ksajadi 2y ago
  I agree with you and at the risk of self-promotion, that's why we built Cloud 66 (which takes care of Day-1 (build and deploy) as well as Day-2 (scale and maintenance) part of infrastructure. As we all can see there is a lot to this than just wrapping code in a Dockerfile and pushing it out to a Swarm cluster.
- chipdart 2y ago
  > But a huge part of me sees Kamal & thinks, man, this is a lot of work being done only to have to keep walking backwards into the complexity they were trying to avoid. Fully agree. I get resume-driven development vibes out of this project.
hipadev23 2y ago
I feel like you’re conflating the orchestration with proxying. There’s no reason they couldn’t be using caddy or traefik or envoy for the proxy (just like k8s ends up using them as an ingress controller), while still using docker.
- ksajadi 2y ago
  Docker is the container engine. Swarm is the orchestration, the same as Kubernetes. The concept of "Service" in k8s takes care of a lot of the proxying, while still using Docker (not anymore tho). In Swarm, services exist but only take care of container lifecycle and not traffic. While networking is left to the containers, Swarm services always get in the way, causing issues that will require a proxy. In k8s for example, you can use Docker and won't need a proxy for ZDD (while you might want one for Ingress and other uses)
chipdart 2y ago
> This primarily exists to take care of a fundamental issue in Docker Swarm (Kamal's orchestrator of choice) where replacing containers of a service disrupts traffic. If that's the reason then I feel someone failed to do even the most cursory research on the topic. I mean, a staple of any container orchestration service is the use of an ingress controller to handle dialups and blue/green deployments. More to the point, ingress controllers is the name given to the role assigned to any of the myriad reverse proxies readily available for years, if not decades, to handle this very same usecase.
Sphax 2y ago
Where did you see that Kamal uses Docker Swarm ? As far as I can tell it doesn't use it.
strzibny 2y ago
Kamal uses plain 'docker run' commands, there is no Swarm or orchestration. It's a simple tool basically replacing Capistrano.

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

Kamal feels built around the premise that "Kubernetes is too complicated" (after Basecamp got burned by some hired help), and from that justification it goes out and recreates a sizable chunk of the things Kubernetes does. Your list of things a reverse proxy might do is a good example to me of how I expect this to go: what starts out as an ambition to be simple inevitably has to grow & grow more of complexity it sought to avoid. Part of me strongly thinks we need competition & need other things trying to create broad ideally extensible ways or running systems. But a huge part of me sees Kamal & thinks, man, this is a lot of work being done only to have to keep walking backwards into the complexity they were trying to avoid. Usually second system syndrome is the first system being simple the second being overly complicated, and on the tin the case is inverse, but man, the competency of Kube & it's flexibility/adaptability as being a framework for Desired State Management really shows through for me.

ksajadi 2y ago
I agree with you and at the risk of self-promotion, that's why we built Cloud 66 (which takes care of Day-1 (build and deploy) as well as Day-2 (scale and maintenance) part of infrastructure. As we all can see there is a lot to this than just wrapping code in a Dockerfile and pushing it out to a Swarm cluster.
chipdart 2y ago
> But a huge part of me sees Kamal & thinks, man, this is a lot of work being done only to have to keep walking backwards into the complexity they were trying to avoid. Fully agree. I get resume-driven development vibes out of this project.

hipadev23 2y ago

I feel like you’re conflating the orchestration with proxying. There’s no reason they couldn’t be using caddy or traefik or envoy for the proxy (just like k8s ends up using them as an ingress controller), while still using docker.

ksajadi 2y ago
Docker is the container engine. Swarm is the orchestration, the same as Kubernetes. The concept of "Service" in k8s takes care of a lot of the proxying, while still using Docker (not anymore tho). In Swarm, services exist but only take care of container lifecycle and not traffic. While networking is left to the containers, Swarm services always get in the way, causing issues that will require a proxy. In k8s for example, you can use Docker and won't need a proxy for ZDD (while you might want one for Ingress and other uses)

chipdart 2y ago

> This primarily exists to take care of a fundamental issue in Docker Swarm (Kamal's orchestrator of choice) where replacing containers of a service disrupts traffic. If that's the reason then I feel someone failed to do even the most cursory research on the topic. I mean, a staple of any container orchestration service is the use of an ingress controller to handle dialups and blue/green deployments. More to the point, ingress controllers is the name given to the role assigned to any of the myriad reverse proxies readily available for years, if not decades, to handle this very same usecase.

Sphax 2y ago

Where did you see that Kamal uses Docker Swarm ? As far as I can tell it doesn't use it.

strzibny 2y ago

Kamal uses plain 'docker run' commands, there is no Swarm or orchestration. It's a simple tool basically replacing Capistrano.