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Know nothing about automobile engineering but somehow this feels like WordPerfect releasing a fantastic version for DOS when Windows was already capturing all t

Know nothing about automobile engineering but somehow this feels like WordPerfect releasing a fantastic version for DOS when Windows was already capturing all the market. Btw they did that. Rest is history.

bayindirh 2y ago
Considering that people still love vinyl, automatic watches, fountain pens and hand made notebooks, I think this will still has its niche, and more interesting designs will follow to push the internal combustion engines forward. On the other hand of the spectrum, Hyundai Ioniq 5 N can emulate a sports car with an internal combustion engine and 8 speed sequential gearbox.
- mrangle 2y ago
  ICE aren't niche, and there isn't strong evidence that they will be. There doesn't seem to be a public Come-to-Jesus moment for electric cars on the horizon. There seems to be solid reasoning behind that reluctance. That is, it will be difficult to displace. If phasing out ICE comes down to regulations only, then the antique interface analogy doesn't fit. >On the other hand of the spectrum, Hyundai Ioniq 5 N can emulate a sports car with an internal combustion engine and 8 speed sequential gearbox. Sports cars are sometimes for vanity, which is a role that a Hyundai wouldn't fill. But you referenced driving characteristics. Fair enough, and so no need to talk about the vanity attraction of a future all electric Porsche. When not for vanity only, sports cars are for people who like a driving experience. Sports car culture is strongly critical of any deviation from an ideal experience even with better ICE cars. Therefore, it tends to detest "the other end of the spectrum" the most. Sports cars are integrating electric motors, but mostly as horsepower and torque supplements for ICE. The most well regarded sports cars for the common man err toward being ultra-light weight, relatively low power, and high rpm with a manual gearbox. With the rest being as analog as possible. With incremental deviations from that ideal only as preferred for specific owner comfort. None of that criteria speaks to an appropriate / desired role for an electric motor.
  - freeone3000 2y ago
    >need to talk about the vanity attraction of a future all electric Porsche Future? You can buy an all-electric Porsche Taycan since 2019 - and it’s faster than the 911. Sports cars are fully adopting electrification, due to the huge torque numbers and high scalability. M-B and BMW of course, but also Porsche and soon to be Ferrari. It’s not just hybrids used for a boost (as in the decade past): those are full electrics.
    - mrangle 2y ago
      What's your point? Future or now, my point about vanity remains. I don't see any point in arguing over my use of the word "future" here. Again, "faster" isn't the most important metric for car enthusiasts. Which is what I described in my post. I know that's disappointing to people who would like it to be in order to claim total justification for electric motors. To say that "sports cars are fully adopting electrification" seems to want to imply that sports cars are moving mostly to full electrification. This isn't remotely true. Their customer base wouldn't stand for it.
      - dangsux 2y ago
        [dead]
      - grvdrm 2y ago
        Under-appreciated point you make: not about speed. I own a 2014 Boxster S. 315 hp, 266 lb/ft torque, 6-speed. It is NOT the fastest car out there. In fact I own an automatic 3-series BMW that's faster in a straight line every time. But the Boxster is under 3k pounds curb weight. It is laser-precise on the road. And it sounds glorious, especially with sport exhaust. I'm often driving between 20-35 mph in second gear because it's the best day-to-day way to hear the engine's sounds. Otherwise, there are people out there buying 911s/etc. because they can rather than because they care, and those people don't care that Porsche is moving sports cars to hybrid, or less interested in putting manuals in their cars. But lots of us still want the pure sports experience.
randerson 2y ago
I actually miss DOS. I could focus on one task for hours without being distracted by other apps trying to get my attention. There was something raw and engaging about being a few layers closer to the hardware without all the bloat. And, while I'd never go back to mechanical hard drives, you could hear the computer 'thinking'. It was more visceral. I think it's a great analogy. It's all the little quirks and flaws that make ICE cars feel like they have a 'soul'. The more you have to engage with it, the more it feels human and machine are having a conversation. Many car enthusiasts seek out manual gearboxes (despite being slower to 60mph than a modern auto), because it's _fun_ and gives you some mechanical sympathy. I own an EV, which is a fantastic daily, and a 911 for weekends. I've never felt like taking the EV out for no reason other than to enjoy a mountain pass. It's too heavy in the corners and too sterile.
- kopirgan 2y ago
  Interesting perspective from someone that owns both. I only know ICE unless as passenger. Yes manual steering and gearbox are fun. The response is linear predictable. But if I were a kid entering college I'll be scared to choose automotive engineering as it's mostly likely to be wasted knowledge..
- 6SixTy 2y ago
  Do you actually miss DOS or just long for the CLI? Due to the culture of the x86 ecosystem, DOS hasn't gone anywhere; and the CLI is pretty much the default UI for most UNIX like operating systems out there.
kleiba 2y ago
In Germany, where Porsche is from, sales of EVs are on the decline. The same is true for other countries in Europe as well. https://www.teslarati.com/electric-vehicle-eu-sales-drop/ https://www.teslarati.com/electric-vehicle-eu-sales-drop/
- kopirgan 2y ago
  Think this is short term. Again no expert just based on what I see. Solid batteries give it few years then the maths will be very different
  - kleiba 2y ago
    Not sure. Germans are traditionally both tech xenophobes and cheapskates - two arguments against EVs.
    - generic92034 2y ago
      Regarding "cheapskates" - I think you have to see the EV prices in combination with typical German salaries. If a middle-class EV costs more than the yearly gross income of an average German software dev, you know there is not much room for rising sales figures. Especially figuring in the large difference between gross and net income here. Add the lacking charging infrastructure and the current decline in sales is no surprise at all.
- meiraleal 2y ago
  In August. After a 38% tariff.
  - kleiba 2y ago
    Check out the diagram at the top of this article: https://www.autozeitung.de/assets/styles/article_image/public/field/image/zulassungszahlen-e-autos-2024-08.jpg?itok=zV4R6fHS https://www.autozeitung.de/assets/styles/article_image/publi... As you can see, compared to 2023, the sales numbers have been worse month for month in 2024, not just in August.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
I think it's more like every keyboard player still lusting after physical analog synths even though everyone has perfectly usable, deterministic, digitally perfect software synths for a fraction of the price (or even the amazing free version of Vital). We are talking hobbyists not corporate office software users. ICE is boring to my monkey brain looking to be entertained/engaged even if vastly superior.
ryukoposting 2y ago
There's another block of folks who look at Tesla like a company who's making great software in 1994, but it only runs on Windows NT. Yes, EVs are better in a lot of ways, but in 2024 there are severe barriers that make EVs impractical for a lot of people. Throughout most of the world, charging infrastructure just isn't good enough. Because cities have better charging infra than rural areas, EVs are at their best as commuter cars. Ironically, there was already an alternative to commuter cars that's hypothetically even better than EVs - public transit - and it also suffers due to lack of investment in infrastructure development.

bayindirh 2y ago

Considering that people still love vinyl, automatic watches, fountain pens and hand made notebooks, I think this will still has its niche, and more interesting designs will follow to push the internal combustion engines forward. On the other hand of the spectrum, Hyundai Ioniq 5 N can emulate a sports car with an internal combustion engine and 8 speed sequential gearbox.

mrangle 2y ago
ICE aren't niche, and there isn't strong evidence that they will be. There doesn't seem to be a public Come-to-Jesus moment for electric cars on the horizon. There seems to be solid reasoning behind that reluctance. That is, it will be difficult to displace. If phasing out ICE comes down to regulations only, then the antique interface analogy doesn't fit. >On the other hand of the spectrum, Hyundai Ioniq 5 N can emulate a sports car with an internal combustion engine and 8 speed sequential gearbox. Sports cars are sometimes for vanity, which is a role that a Hyundai wouldn't fill. But you referenced driving characteristics. Fair enough, and so no need to talk about the vanity attraction of a future all electric Porsche. When not for vanity only, sports cars are for people who like a driving experience. Sports car culture is strongly critical of any deviation from an ideal experience even with better ICE cars. Therefore, it tends to detest "the other end of the spectrum" the most. Sports cars are integrating electric motors, but mostly as horsepower and torque supplements for ICE. The most well regarded sports cars for the common man err toward being ultra-light weight, relatively low power, and high rpm with a manual gearbox. With the rest being as analog as possible. With incremental deviations from that ideal only as preferred for specific owner comfort. None of that criteria speaks to an appropriate / desired role for an electric motor.
- freeone3000 2y ago
  >need to talk about the vanity attraction of a future all electric Porsche Future? You can buy an all-electric Porsche Taycan since 2019 - and it’s faster than the 911. Sports cars are fully adopting electrification, due to the huge torque numbers and high scalability. M-B and BMW of course, but also Porsche and soon to be Ferrari. It’s not just hybrids used for a boost (as in the decade past): those are full electrics.
  - mrangle 2y ago
    What's your point? Future or now, my point about vanity remains. I don't see any point in arguing over my use of the word "future" here. Again, "faster" isn't the most important metric for car enthusiasts. Which is what I described in my post. I know that's disappointing to people who would like it to be in order to claim total justification for electric motors. To say that "sports cars are fully adopting electrification" seems to want to imply that sports cars are moving mostly to full electrification. This isn't remotely true. Their customer base wouldn't stand for it.
    - dangsux 2y ago
      [dead]
    - grvdrm 2y ago
      Under-appreciated point you make: not about speed. I own a 2014 Boxster S. 315 hp, 266 lb/ft torque, 6-speed. It is NOT the fastest car out there. In fact I own an automatic 3-series BMW that's faster in a straight line every time. But the Boxster is under 3k pounds curb weight. It is laser-precise on the road. And it sounds glorious, especially with sport exhaust. I'm often driving between 20-35 mph in second gear because it's the best day-to-day way to hear the engine's sounds. Otherwise, there are people out there buying 911s/etc. because they can rather than because they care, and those people don't care that Porsche is moving sports cars to hybrid, or less interested in putting manuals in their cars. But lots of us still want the pure sports experience.

randerson 2y ago

I actually miss DOS. I could focus on one task for hours without being distracted by other apps trying to get my attention. There was something raw and engaging about being a few layers closer to the hardware without all the bloat. And, while I'd never go back to mechanical hard drives, you could hear the computer 'thinking'. It was more visceral. I think it's a great analogy. It's all the little quirks and flaws that make ICE cars feel like they have a 'soul'. The more you have to engage with it, the more it feels human and machine are having a conversation. Many car enthusiasts seek out manual gearboxes (despite being slower to 60mph than a modern auto), because it's _fun_ and gives you some mechanical sympathy. I own an EV, which is a fantastic daily, and a 911 for weekends. I've never felt like taking the EV out for no reason other than to enjoy a mountain pass. It's too heavy in the corners and too sterile.

kopirgan 2y ago
Interesting perspective from someone that owns both. I only know ICE unless as passenger. Yes manual steering and gearbox are fun. The response is linear predictable. But if I were a kid entering college I'll be scared to choose automotive engineering as it's mostly likely to be wasted knowledge..
6SixTy 2y ago
Do you actually miss DOS or just long for the CLI? Due to the culture of the x86 ecosystem, DOS hasn't gone anywhere; and the CLI is pretty much the default UI for most UNIX like operating systems out there.

kleiba 2y ago

In Germany, where Porsche is from, sales of EVs are on the decline. The same is true for other countries in Europe as well. https://www.teslarati.com/electric-vehicle-eu-sales-drop/ https://www.teslarati.com/electric-vehicle-eu-sales-drop/

kopirgan 2y ago
Think this is short term. Again no expert just based on what I see. Solid batteries give it few years then the maths will be very different
- kleiba 2y ago
  Not sure. Germans are traditionally both tech xenophobes and cheapskates - two arguments against EVs.
  - generic92034 2y ago
    Regarding "cheapskates" - I think you have to see the EV prices in combination with typical German salaries. If a middle-class EV costs more than the yearly gross income of an average German software dev, you know there is not much room for rising sales figures. Especially figuring in the large difference between gross and net income here. Add the lacking charging infrastructure and the current decline in sales is no surprise at all.
meiraleal 2y ago
In August. After a 38% tariff.
- kleiba 2y ago
  Check out the diagram at the top of this article: https://www.autozeitung.de/assets/styles/article_image/public/field/image/zulassungszahlen-e-autos-2024-08.jpg?itok=zV4R6fHS https://www.autozeitung.de/assets/styles/article_image/publi... As you can see, compared to 2023, the sales numbers have been worse month for month in 2024, not just in August.

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

I think it's more like every keyboard player still lusting after physical analog synths even though everyone has perfectly usable, deterministic, digitally perfect software synths for a fraction of the price (or even the amazing free version of Vital). We are talking hobbyists not corporate office software users. ICE is boring to my monkey brain looking to be entertained/engaged even if vastly superior.

ryukoposting 2y ago

There's another block of folks who look at Tesla like a company who's making great software in 1994, but it only runs on Windows NT. Yes, EVs are better in a lot of ways, but in 2024 there are severe barriers that make EVs impractical for a lot of people. Throughout most of the world, charging infrastructure just isn't good enough. Because cities have better charging infra than rural areas, EVs are at their best as commuter cars. Ironically, there was already an alternative to commuter cars that's hypothetically even better than EVs - public transit - and it also suffers due to lack of investment in infrastructure development.