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>No form of recycling will work if people don’t use the bin. blaming consumers for the industry waste that's being released from their factories into the publi

>No form of recycling will work if people don’t use the bin. blaming consumers for the industry waste that's being released from their factories into the public environment is diluting responsibility. If the governments were not subjects of the big multinational petrochemical corporations, they should charge a deposit for every gram of plastic that customers acquire, similar to the German Pfand for plastic bottles and cans (0,25 euro cent). If a plastic contains 33 grams of plastic as described in their QR code or instruction manual, charge the customer a deposit of 3,3 dollars for each product and pay the customer 3,3 dollars for bringing back that amount of plastic. The environment would be pristine Plastic is cheap because the future generations are paying the price of pollution

ForOldHack 2y ago
Almost all of the waste plastic comes from the offering of cheap wrappings by cheap companies (i.e. super conglomerates) used by cheap people who simply do not care. Make it expensive and all these people will complain you are impinging on their freedoms. The oil industries will complain The single use plastic purveyers will complain and the lazy consumers will complain, yet exactly like Germany, it must be done. Some people think it's cool to burn money, while others purchase unneeded AI farms. We, companies who make, companies who sell, and consumers who use as well as permissive governments all dilute responsibility, and a vast majority of plastics I pickup are simply the tops of plastic food containers. How many are sealing reusable containers? Zero. how many straws? Thousands. Make plastic straws the gold standard for recycling. worst offenders? The top fast food venders in food deserts. Cheap companies serving cheap lazy customers. The poster is absolutely right.
- idunnoman1222 2y ago
  You forgot about the health and safety regulators
QuadmasterXLII 2y ago
ok, but visit a beach in a country where the people put the plastic in a bin, and then visit a beach in a country where the people don’t put the plastic in a bin.
- beerandt 2y ago
  Yea the graphic/map with source of plastic pollution per river delta is pretty eye opening. Which I suspect is why it's not better known or distributed.
  - xnx 2y ago
    This one? https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Mass-of-river-plastic-flowing-into-oceans-in-tons-per-year-River-contributions-are_fig2_380494417 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Mass-of-river-plastic-fl... I don't know enough to distinguish that this isn't just a graphic of population x flow rate.
    - beerandt 2y ago
      That's similar to the one I've seen. It uses some averages and rates to backfill totals, but isn't just pop x flow. It has a coefficient for 'waste mismanagement' which seems to dominate the eqn of how much ends up in the rivers vs landfills or otherwise secured.
  - Lerc 2y ago
    Do you have a link with more tangible details? I was under the impression that ocean plastic was comprised largely from discarded/lost material from ocean going industries followed by tyre dust. A quick google didn't reveal much more than organizations think science is done by SEO. Found a lot of incomparable data being compared. Measurements by mass, measurements by particle. Varying definitions of what constitutes a microplastic. from >2cm to >0.1mm I found claims for top 10 rivers ranging from 95% to 18% of the river plastic. In general a lot of percentages, and few absolute numbers. In general it makes me despair for finding actual data. I'd like to be able to at least check that they calculated the percentage correctly mathematically. Preferably I could also know what as a proportion of what was being calculated so I could have some confidence that they were at least the same class of thing.
galleywest200 2y ago
Several US states have this program for glass and cans and yet both glass and cans are still found on the side of the road.
- schiffern 2y ago
  "Are still found" implies we can only accept perfection. Back in the real world, bottle bills double rates of recycling (33% to 70%). Keep America Beautiful, a packaging industry greenwashing group, developed the industry's modern response to policy. They're against bottle bills too, despite the fact that they're an extremely cost-effective anti-litter policy. Back when the 5¢ deposit was introduced it was equivalent to more than 25¢ today, so today's policy is limited by a failure to update with the times. In Michigan (which has a still-pretty-measly 10¢ deposit) they see recycling rates of 97%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_deposit_legislation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_deposit_legislation_...
  - binary132 2y ago
    not debating in either direction, but wouldn’t it be arguable that bottle bills are merely associated with increased recycling, since probably they are voted in by constituencies who are already more likely to recycle?
    - schiffern 2y ago
      The hypothesis is easy to test by looking at historical recycling rates. If they track public opinion then it's confirmed, but if there's a sharp increase when bottle bills pass then it's mostly the (predictable) price signaling effect. I find the doubt that prices work a bit surprising, since generally HN audiences tend to be above average in market literacy otherwise. https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/benefits-of-bottle-bills/litter-studies-in-bottle-bill-states https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/benefits-of-bottle-bill...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
qwerty456127 2y ago
> blaming consumers Why not blame consumers which would dispose their garbage wherever they want instead of a bin? I would rather criminalize this. It's so easy to put an empty plastic bottle in a bin yet they insist on throwing it on the ground.
- schiffern 2y ago
  You should know you're repeating verbatim a propaganda line developed by the packaging industry to avoid (at the time impending) regulation, similar to the plastic industry's "recycling makes it all okay" and fossil & tobacco's "scientists disagree." https://web.archive.org/web/20050401181834/http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/21651/ https://web.archive.org/web/20050401181834/http://www.altern...
- commodoreboxer 2y ago
  Throwing plastic on the ground instead of in a bin is already illegal, and often carries $1000 fines if you are caught. And putting it in a bin already is just kicking the can down the road. I say we blame the corporations who are making materials that are nearly impossible to effectively recycle, don't biodegrade within several human lifespans, and break down into something that may very well be poisonous to us and our ecosystems. Blaming consumers for this is like blaming them for lead in gasoline.
  - qwerty456127 2y ago
    > Throwing plastic on the ground instead of in a bin is already illegal, and often carries $1000 fines if you are caught. Is this ever enforced anywhere outside Singapore? I don't think anybody cares.
    - commodoreboxer 2y ago
      In state parks, but I haven't seen it really enforced in most of the US. The point is that litter isn't the primary problem with plastic. Most of the issues with it have nothing to do with the littering of random citizens, to the point that it's not even worth bringing up in a conversation about plastic.
PaulHoule 2y ago
If you believe that (it's the fault of the industry) a common answer is to put a cap on plastic production, just like we put a cap on ozone destroying CFCs. First you prevent growth in the industry (it's easier to tell the industry not to build more factories than it is to tell them not to use the ones they built) and then you phase out.

ForOldHack 2y ago

Almost all of the waste plastic comes from the offering of cheap wrappings by cheap companies (i.e. super conglomerates) used by cheap people who simply do not care. Make it expensive and all these people will complain you are impinging on their freedoms. The oil industries will complain The single use plastic purveyers will complain and the lazy consumers will complain, yet exactly like Germany, it must be done. Some people think it's cool to burn money, while others purchase unneeded AI farms. We, companies who make, companies who sell, and consumers who use as well as permissive governments all dilute responsibility, and a vast majority of plastics I pickup are simply the tops of plastic food containers. How many are sealing reusable containers? Zero. how many straws? Thousands. Make plastic straws the gold standard for recycling. worst offenders? The top fast food venders in food deserts. Cheap companies serving cheap lazy customers. The poster is absolutely right.

idunnoman1222 2y ago
You forgot about the health and safety regulators

QuadmasterXLII 2y ago

ok, but visit a beach in a country where the people put the plastic in a bin, and then visit a beach in a country where the people don’t put the plastic in a bin.

beerandt 2y ago
Yea the graphic/map with source of plastic pollution per river delta is pretty eye opening. Which I suspect is why it's not better known or distributed.
- xnx 2y ago
  This one? https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Mass-of-river-plastic-flowing-into-oceans-in-tons-per-year-River-contributions-are_fig2_380494417 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Mass-of-river-plastic-fl... I don't know enough to distinguish that this isn't just a graphic of population x flow rate.
  - beerandt 2y ago
    That's similar to the one I've seen. It uses some averages and rates to backfill totals, but isn't just pop x flow. It has a coefficient for 'waste mismanagement' which seems to dominate the eqn of how much ends up in the rivers vs landfills or otherwise secured.
- Lerc 2y ago
  Do you have a link with more tangible details? I was under the impression that ocean plastic was comprised largely from discarded/lost material from ocean going industries followed by tyre dust. A quick google didn't reveal much more than organizations think science is done by SEO. Found a lot of incomparable data being compared. Measurements by mass, measurements by particle. Varying definitions of what constitutes a microplastic. from >2cm to >0.1mm I found claims for top 10 rivers ranging from 95% to 18% of the river plastic. In general a lot of percentages, and few absolute numbers. In general it makes me despair for finding actual data. I'd like to be able to at least check that they calculated the percentage correctly mathematically. Preferably I could also know what as a proportion of what was being calculated so I could have some confidence that they were at least the same class of thing.

galleywest200 2y ago

Several US states have this program for glass and cans and yet both glass and cans are still found on the side of the road.

schiffern 2y ago
"Are still found" implies we can only accept perfection. Back in the real world, bottle bills double rates of recycling (33% to 70%). Keep America Beautiful, a packaging industry greenwashing group, developed the industry's modern response to policy. They're against bottle bills too, despite the fact that they're an extremely cost-effective anti-litter policy. Back when the 5¢ deposit was introduced it was equivalent to more than 25¢ today, so today's policy is limited by a failure to update with the times. In Michigan (which has a still-pretty-measly 10¢ deposit) they see recycling rates of 97%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_deposit_legislation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_deposit_legislation_...
- binary132 2y ago
  not debating in either direction, but wouldn’t it be arguable that bottle bills are merely associated with increased recycling, since probably they are voted in by constituencies who are already more likely to recycle?
  - schiffern 2y ago
    The hypothesis is easy to test by looking at historical recycling rates. If they track public opinion then it's confirmed, but if there's a sharp increase when bottle bills pass then it's mostly the (predictable) price signaling effect. I find the doubt that prices work a bit surprising, since generally HN audiences tend to be above average in market literacy otherwise. https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/benefits-of-bottle-bills/litter-studies-in-bottle-bill-states https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/benefits-of-bottle-bill...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

qwerty456127 2y ago

> blaming consumers Why not blame consumers which would dispose their garbage wherever they want instead of a bin? I would rather criminalize this. It's so easy to put an empty plastic bottle in a bin yet they insist on throwing it on the ground.

schiffern 2y ago
You should know you're repeating verbatim a propaganda line developed by the packaging industry to avoid (at the time impending) regulation, similar to the plastic industry's "recycling makes it all okay" and fossil & tobacco's "scientists disagree." https://web.archive.org/web/20050401181834/http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/21651/ https://web.archive.org/web/20050401181834/http://www.altern...
commodoreboxer 2y ago
Throwing plastic on the ground instead of in a bin is already illegal, and often carries $1000 fines if you are caught. And putting it in a bin already is just kicking the can down the road. I say we blame the corporations who are making materials that are nearly impossible to effectively recycle, don't biodegrade within several human lifespans, and break down into something that may very well be poisonous to us and our ecosystems. Blaming consumers for this is like blaming them for lead in gasoline.
- qwerty456127 2y ago
  > Throwing plastic on the ground instead of in a bin is already illegal, and often carries $1000 fines if you are caught. Is this ever enforced anywhere outside Singapore? I don't think anybody cares.
  - commodoreboxer 2y ago
    In state parks, but I haven't seen it really enforced in most of the US. The point is that litter isn't the primary problem with plastic. Most of the issues with it have nothing to do with the littering of random citizens, to the point that it's not even worth bringing up in a conversation about plastic.

PaulHoule 2y ago

If you believe that (it's the fault of the industry) a common answer is to put a cap on plastic production, just like we put a cap on ozone destroying CFCs. First you prevent growth in the industry (it's easier to tell the industry not to build more factories than it is to tell them not to use the ones they built) and then you phase out.