4 ms·

Antarctica's Ozone Hole Is Healing and Set to Recover by 2066

AndrewKemendo 2y ago
This is one of my go-to examples for successful ethics in engineering Along with the elimination of leaded gasoline, it serves as proof of successful mutual cooperation as a species, something people often claim is impossible or we have no examples of. The fact that it became as impactful as it was is also illustrative of two things; 1. Consistent Failure to recognize and then capture global scale high impact externalities prior to harm for consumer products 2. Law of unintended consequences due to lack of holism in the design process (related to the above, lack of incentives to be holistic) My argument is that Cybernetics being killed in the crib has made human life structurally worse, as the engineering discipline without holism, ignores the causal impact of ignoring systemic inputs - because it slows people down, is hard and doesn't meet "bottom line" demands which are the priority for capital markets funding these types of developments.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  True, but it was a much smaller and easier target than, for example, reducing CO2 emissions. It only required some evolutionary changes (remove FCFs) rather than revolutionary changes that also pose an existentially threat to very powerful companies (worldwide oil & gas industry) and require substantiative changes at the national level that are hard to pass politically.
  - zbrozek 2y ago
    They removed CFCs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorofluorocarbon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorofluorocarbon
    - zbrozek 2y ago
      I don't know why I got downvoted for a minor correction of an acronym along with a link explaining what it means.
  - dehrmann 2y ago
    At some point it might be appropriate to frame the problem as being with "very large companies," but we're still at a point where the technology (mostly storage) isn't quite ready. Coming from a US perspective, politicians aren't helping, either. If climate change were really a concern, the US wouldn't be putting a 100% tariff on Chinese EVs, and there'd be a large government push for building out the charging network.
    - melling 2y ago
      There is a large government push to build out the charging network. “Biden’s $7.5 billion investment in EV charging has only produced 7 stations in two years” https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2024/03/28/ev-charging-stations-slow-rollout/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2024/03/28/...
      - dehrmann 2y ago
        What's sad is most of the EV hesitancy is because of range anxiety, charging stations are the fix, and building a charging station is relatively easy.
      - insane_dreamer 2y ago
        That headline is quite misleading; if you read the article you find that the issue is that it takes time for States to come up with a funding proposal for something that is brand new for them. There's a lot of lead time required for these types of projects.
        melling 2y ago
        That’s sort of entirely different discussion. My point was we are building 500,000 additional chargers. I’m sure we’ll get there. Once done, it should significantly increase EV adoption.
  - melling 2y ago
    40 years ago Carl Sagan said to stop burning coal and make sure India and China don’t use all their reserves. Imagine how much more time we would have if we’d have listened. https://youtu.be/Wp-WiNXH6hI?si=Fj1DaPEimOwwEvr9 https://youtu.be/Wp-WiNXH6hI?si=Fj1DaPEimOwwEvr9 We should be very close to peak coal sometime this decade.
- jfengel 2y ago
  What does "Cybernetics" mean in this context?
  - wizzwizz4 2y ago
    What it means in every context: the study of self-modifying systems. Nicky Case has a (very very introductory-level) interactive primer: https://ncase.me/loopy/ https://ncase.me/loopy/
  - tempodox 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics
  - AndrewKemendo 2y ago
    OP here, I would refer to the other responses as being largely sufficient It’s the general concept that you pursue understanding, to the fullest extent of the state of hypothetical measurement, the extent to which your actions impact the entirety of everything globally or universally
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  > elimination of leaded gasoline USA is still the main producteur of Tetraethyllead (the additive used to make this gasoline) and sell it to Iraq and Yemen where it’s legal and widely used. Edit: 3 years late, I’m happily wrong. Thanks Solstice.
  - solstice 2y ago
    I thought it had been phased out in 2021: https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/un-leaded-gasoline-1.6158216 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/un-leaded-gasoline-1.6158216

This is one of my go-to examples for successful ethics in engineering Along with the elimination of leaded gasoline, it serves as proof of successful mutual cooperation as a species, something people often claim is impossible or we have no examples of. The fact that it became as impactful as it was is also illustrative of two things; 1. Consistent Failure to recognize and then capture global scale high impact externalities prior to harm for consumer products 2. Law of unintended consequences due to lack of holism in the design process (related to the above, lack of incentives to be holistic) My argument is that Cybernetics being killed in the crib has made human life structurally worse, as the engineering discipline without holism, ignores the causal impact of ignoring systemic inputs - because it slows people down, is hard and doesn't meet "bottom line" demands which are the priority for capital markets funding these types of developments.

insane_dreamer 2y ago
True, but it was a much smaller and easier target than, for example, reducing CO2 emissions. It only required some evolutionary changes (remove FCFs) rather than revolutionary changes that also pose an existentially threat to very powerful companies (worldwide oil & gas industry) and require substantiative changes at the national level that are hard to pass politically.
- zbrozek 2y ago
  They removed CFCs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorofluorocarbon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorofluorocarbon
  - zbrozek 2y ago
    I don't know why I got downvoted for a minor correction of an acronym along with a link explaining what it means.
- dehrmann 2y ago
  At some point it might be appropriate to frame the problem as being with "very large companies," but we're still at a point where the technology (mostly storage) isn't quite ready. Coming from a US perspective, politicians aren't helping, either. If climate change were really a concern, the US wouldn't be putting a 100% tariff on Chinese EVs, and there'd be a large government push for building out the charging network.
  - melling 2y ago
    There is a large government push to build out the charging network. “Biden’s $7.5 billion investment in EV charging has only produced 7 stations in two years” https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2024/03/28/ev-charging-stations-slow-rollout/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2024/03/28/...
    - dehrmann 2y ago
      What's sad is most of the EV hesitancy is because of range anxiety, charging stations are the fix, and building a charging station is relatively easy.
    - insane_dreamer 2y ago
      That headline is quite misleading; if you read the article you find that the issue is that it takes time for States to come up with a funding proposal for something that is brand new for them. There's a lot of lead time required for these types of projects.
      - melling 2y ago
        That’s sort of entirely different discussion. My point was we are building 500,000 additional chargers. I’m sure we’ll get there. Once done, it should significantly increase EV adoption.
- melling 2y ago
  40 years ago Carl Sagan said to stop burning coal and make sure India and China don’t use all their reserves. Imagine how much more time we would have if we’d have listened. https://youtu.be/Wp-WiNXH6hI?si=Fj1DaPEimOwwEvr9 https://youtu.be/Wp-WiNXH6hI?si=Fj1DaPEimOwwEvr9 We should be very close to peak coal sometime this decade.
jfengel 2y ago
What does "Cybernetics" mean in this context?
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  What it means in every context: the study of self-modifying systems. Nicky Case has a (very very introductory-level) interactive primer: https://ncase.me/loopy/ https://ncase.me/loopy/
- tempodox 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics
- AndrewKemendo 2y ago
  OP here, I would refer to the other responses as being largely sufficient It’s the general concept that you pursue understanding, to the fullest extent of the state of hypothetical measurement, the extent to which your actions impact the entirety of everything globally or universally
aziaziazi 2y ago
> elimination of leaded gasoline USA is still the main producteur of Tetraethyllead (the additive used to make this gasoline) and sell it to Iraq and Yemen where it’s legal and widely used. Edit: 3 years late, I’m happily wrong. Thanks Solstice.
- solstice 2y ago
  I thought it had been phased out in 2021: https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/un-leaded-gasoline-1.6158216 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/un-leaded-gasoline-1.6158216