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I think many of people here live in US and assume that it everywhere things look similar. in my European country electric infrastructure is not ready for elect

I think many of people here live in US and assume that it everywhere things look similar. in my European country electric infrastructure is not ready for electric cars and with current energy prices this makes no financial sense. I own plug in hybrid and I live in apartment meaning I have no possibility to charge at home. near me (about 10 min of walking there is public single phase allow charger with 2 plugs machine maxing 3.5kW total (for both)) and if I'm lucky I manage to find free slot one a week, but usually that's one every two weeks. This is only "free" charger in reasonable distance from me, and free means that I can use it when I have ticket for public transportation with I need to have anyways. there are some normal chargers, but they cost 2x for slow charging or 3x for fast charging than energy prices here + you have to pay per minute of taking parking spot. in summary when I calculated how much does it cost $/km it is very similar to gasoline but it's much trickier to recharge. I would love to own fully electric but without also owning house with solar this makes no sense right now.

arresin 2y ago
So spend on that infrastructure instead, or mandate it. Honestly, spending resources on anything ICEs (outside of special industries) in this day and age is just wrong.
- LightBug1 2y ago
  They're called sports cars for a reason. They're driven far less than everyday cars. They're fantastic fun. I'm an enviromentalist and I'd still buy an ICE Porsche. No EV has come close ... only the Hyundai ioniq 5 N seems to be looking interesting.
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    >I'm an enviromentalist and I'd still buy an ICE Porsche. Environmentalists walk or ride bikes.
    - chromatin 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
      - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
        Where do you draw the line then? If I spend the week jetting across the Atlantic but then take a reusable bag to the supermarket am I an environmentalist?
        LightBug1 2y ago
        https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Extremes https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
        tonyedgecombe 2y ago
        Where do you draw the line then? I'll note I've seen people struggling across the supermarket carpark to avoid buying a plastic bag only to get in a giant SUV. It's a form of moral licensing[1], there is a huge amount of dissonance around environmental issues. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing
        LightBug1 2y ago
        I'll agree on that example. But that's different to what's been discussed in this thread. A sports car, used fairly sparingly for fun, and not a daily driver - is different to the horrible trend of daily driving done via ugly, honkingly big SUV's. There's a line somewhere out there that enables humanity to have fun and not destroy the planet ... probably related to the 80/20 rule.
    - _factor 2y ago
      “I’m a vegetarian, but I’d still scarf down a steak.”
  - hnaccount_rng 2y ago
    What are you looking for? Typically when people say sports car they mean high-torque (and thereby acceleration)... which ... you will not get an ICE motor that gives you similar performance to an electric drive
- tirant 2y ago
  Fortunately the definition of wrong is very personal. We still have at least 40-50 years of ICE vehicles running on the Earth. Making them even more efficient and cheap is a valuable feat for many millions.
- Szpadel 2y ago
  I like to compare this to SSD vs HDD. Why even invest in HDD development when SSDs are so much better? Right now almost all consumers use SSDs because they are affordable for space most people need. And I remember how we were transitioning where I bought 128gb drive for cost of 4TB HDD to have super snappy system and I had to manage system much more to not burn writes too quickly (ram drives for logs and temp etc) That where I believe we are right now with EVs. But they are more affordable and have better range every year. But to go further with this comparison we still develop new generations of HDDs even after all that time, even when everyone believe that at some point in the future we will abandon that technology completely
jbgt 2y ago
If I may disagree: I live in a flat with a fully electric vehicle. It's just a matter of planning around charging a bit. Once you think ahead (and it's not dramatic), you don't notice anymore. I find plug in hybrids make no sense: electrification is the future.
- mgkimsal 2y ago
  > I find plug in hybrids make no sense: electrification is the future. They make sense depending on how far away that future is, and I think that 'future' is way different for different parts of the world.
- rafaelmn 2y ago
  > I find plug in hybrids make no sense: electrification is the future. Those of us living in the present prefer to be more flexible and have the best of both worlds (electric commute, ICE for long trips)
- JSR_FDED 2y ago
  Really, just a bit of “planning around charging”? The less predictable your life is the less this is an option. The most extreme example of this is Hertz having to walk away from billions invested in 100,000 Teslas. Short term renters simply don’t tolerate the uncertainties that EVs bring.
  - whatevaa 2y ago
    Maybe this person neighbours a Tesla supercharger, who knows
- threeseed 2y ago
  I assume you live in the US. Because in almost every other country there is a real lack of decent charging infrastructure. Especially outside of densely populated areas.
  - oezi 2y ago
    I think Europe and China aren't doing so bad on charging infrastructure.
thebruce87m 2y ago
> in my European country electric infrastructure is not ready for electric cars and with current energy prices this makes no financial sense. I’m always amazed by statements like this. People who have lived through the rollout of the internet to the masses can’t see how we’d modify existing structure to accommodate needs. We had phone lines initially, 20 years later now we have 5G, fibre, satellites. They just dug up every street in my European town to put fibre internet in. We already had broadband in the town. They dug up every street to give us fibre that most people won’t even need over their existing connection. People look at this and say “how will we charge electric cars” when we are already surrounded by electricity.
- acchow 2y ago
  Naturally, the infrastructure arises when the demand is there. But nobody was ever hesitant to buy a 4G-only phone for fear of insufficient 4G service because every 4G phone also worked on 3G. The same is not true of electric cars. People have real mileage anxiety because they can’t use petrol when a charger isn’t available
- xcv123 2y ago
  Yes we already have power cables but they do not generate power. The issue is clean power generation capacity.
  - thebruce87m 2y ago
    There is a reason that I pay 7p/kWh (3p/mile) to charge at night compared to 30p/kWh during the day. There is already spare capacity at night. In my country it’s mostly wind.
    - xcv123 2y ago
      Is your country 100% EV now?
      - thebruce87m 2y ago
tuna74 2y ago
My condo (sort of) put chargers for every parking spot and garage in the whole "complex". Wasn't that expensive and raises the value of the units more than the cost per charger.
freedomben 2y ago
> I think many of people here live in US and assume that it everywhere things look similar. Most of the US is in the same boat as you. Where I live, there is nowhere to charge and there are fairly great distances between things. You rarely ever see electric cars here, because they are only useful for people who have invested quite a bit in their house to build a charging station. The people here on hn that have the attitude you mention, are people who live in large populated regions, especially congregated around the coasts. I'm all for electrifying, and I think it is very necessary, but people do love to put the cart way in front of the horse.
- njarboe 2y ago
  For now electric cars make sense for those who have a way to charge at their home. Otherwise not so great.

arresin 2y ago

So spend on that infrastructure instead, or mandate it. Honestly, spending resources on anything ICEs (outside of special industries) in this day and age is just wrong.

LightBug1 2y ago
They're called sports cars for a reason. They're driven far less than everyday cars. They're fantastic fun. I'm an enviromentalist and I'd still buy an ICE Porsche. No EV has come close ... only the Hyundai ioniq 5 N seems to be looking interesting.
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  >I'm an enviromentalist and I'd still buy an ICE Porsche. Environmentalists walk or ride bikes.
  - chromatin 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
    - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
      Where do you draw the line then? If I spend the week jetting across the Atlantic but then take a reusable bag to the supermarket am I an environmentalist?
      - LightBug1 2y ago
        https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Extremes https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
        tonyedgecombe 2y ago
        Where do you draw the line then? I'll note I've seen people struggling across the supermarket carpark to avoid buying a plastic bag only to get in a giant SUV. It's a form of moral licensing[1], there is a huge amount of dissonance around environmental issues. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing
        LightBug1 2y ago
        I'll agree on that example. But that's different to what's been discussed in this thread. A sports car, used fairly sparingly for fun, and not a daily driver - is different to the horrible trend of daily driving done via ugly, honkingly big SUV's. There's a line somewhere out there that enables humanity to have fun and not destroy the planet ... probably related to the 80/20 rule.
  - _factor 2y ago
    “I’m a vegetarian, but I’d still scarf down a steak.”
- hnaccount_rng 2y ago
  What are you looking for? Typically when people say sports car they mean high-torque (and thereby acceleration)... which ... you will not get an ICE motor that gives you similar performance to an electric drive
tirant 2y ago
Fortunately the definition of wrong is very personal. We still have at least 40-50 years of ICE vehicles running on the Earth. Making them even more efficient and cheap is a valuable feat for many millions.
Szpadel 2y ago
I like to compare this to SSD vs HDD. Why even invest in HDD development when SSDs are so much better? Right now almost all consumers use SSDs because they are affordable for space most people need. And I remember how we were transitioning where I bought 128gb drive for cost of 4TB HDD to have super snappy system and I had to manage system much more to not burn writes too quickly (ram drives for logs and temp etc) That where I believe we are right now with EVs. But they are more affordable and have better range every year. But to go further with this comparison we still develop new generations of HDDs even after all that time, even when everyone believe that at some point in the future we will abandon that technology completely

jbgt 2y ago

If I may disagree: I live in a flat with a fully electric vehicle. It's just a matter of planning around charging a bit. Once you think ahead (and it's not dramatic), you don't notice anymore. I find plug in hybrids make no sense: electrification is the future.

mgkimsal 2y ago
> I find plug in hybrids make no sense: electrification is the future. They make sense depending on how far away that future is, and I think that 'future' is way different for different parts of the world.
rafaelmn 2y ago
> I find plug in hybrids make no sense: electrification is the future. Those of us living in the present prefer to be more flexible and have the best of both worlds (electric commute, ICE for long trips)
JSR_FDED 2y ago
Really, just a bit of “planning around charging”? The less predictable your life is the less this is an option. The most extreme example of this is Hertz having to walk away from billions invested in 100,000 Teslas. Short term renters simply don’t tolerate the uncertainties that EVs bring.
- whatevaa 2y ago
  Maybe this person neighbours a Tesla supercharger, who knows
threeseed 2y ago
I assume you live in the US. Because in almost every other country there is a real lack of decent charging infrastructure. Especially outside of densely populated areas.
- oezi 2y ago
  I think Europe and China aren't doing so bad on charging infrastructure.

thebruce87m 2y ago

> in my European country electric infrastructure is not ready for electric cars and with current energy prices this makes no financial sense. I’m always amazed by statements like this. People who have lived through the rollout of the internet to the masses can’t see how we’d modify existing structure to accommodate needs. We had phone lines initially, 20 years later now we have 5G, fibre, satellites. They just dug up every street in my European town to put fibre internet in. We already had broadband in the town. They dug up every street to give us fibre that most people won’t even need over their existing connection. People look at this and say “how will we charge electric cars” when we are already surrounded by electricity.

acchow 2y ago
Naturally, the infrastructure arises when the demand is there. But nobody was ever hesitant to buy a 4G-only phone for fear of insufficient 4G service because every 4G phone also worked on 3G. The same is not true of electric cars. People have real mileage anxiety because they can’t use petrol when a charger isn’t available
xcv123 2y ago
Yes we already have power cables but they do not generate power. The issue is clean power generation capacity.
- thebruce87m 2y ago
  There is a reason that I pay 7p/kWh (3p/mile) to charge at night compared to 30p/kWh during the day. There is already spare capacity at night. In my country it’s mostly wind.
  - xcv123 2y ago
    Is your country 100% EV now?
    - thebruce87m 2y ago

tuna74 2y ago

My condo (sort of) put chargers for every parking spot and garage in the whole "complex". Wasn't that expensive and raises the value of the units more than the cost per charger.

freedomben 2y ago

> I think many of people here live in US and assume that it everywhere things look similar. Most of the US is in the same boat as you. Where I live, there is nowhere to charge and there are fairly great distances between things. You rarely ever see electric cars here, because they are only useful for people who have invested quite a bit in their house to build a charging station. The people here on hn that have the attitude you mention, are people who live in large populated regions, especially congregated around the coasts. I'm all for electrifying, and I think it is very necessary, but people do love to put the cart way in front of the horse.

njarboe 2y ago
For now electric cars make sense for those who have a way to charge at their home. Otherwise not so great.