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>how damaging it is mining for rare metals to make those batteries. Even thought I'd agree mass EV would not be carried by the current grid, or that charging d

by xxs 2y ago

>how damaging it is mining for rare metals to make those batteries. Even thought I'd agree mass EV would not be carried by the current grid, or that charging density and time is not satisfactory (in most of Europe)... LiFePO4 doesn't contain rare earth metals, unless you count Li for 'rare'.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
On top of that, the commenter is completely ignorant of the rise of saltwater batteries which don't even use lithium. Also probably unaware that with the rise of extremely low cost, solar and wind, Fossil fuel use on the grid is economically nonviable long term. Even so, the fossil fuels consumed on the grid are very likely to be combined cycle natural gas, which has less carbon emissions than have equivalent. Amounts of energy were burned in ice engines. Also, The energy efficiency of electric vehicles is much higher than an ice car, so if solar and wind do not generate the electricity, it still will emit less carbon than an ice. The only useful new engine technology I am interested in is an extremely compact recharging engine for use in plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. There was something about the inside out rotary engine a couple years ago but nothing has come off of it.
- xxs 2y ago
  >On top of that, the commenter is completely ignorant of the rise of saltwater batteries which don't even use lithium. I'd not call the rise, yet. The Na ones' energy density (and specific energy) is even lower than Li based (LiFePO4 is lower than cobalt ones). They might be okay for grid storage, of course.
  - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
    Saltwater batteries and lfp batteries don't require nearly as much active heating and safety measures as nmc chemistries. So the pack level they become a lot more competitive. Rise of high density, salt, water and lfp. We should be able to produce 300 and 400 mile range sedans with sodium ion and LFP chemistries. Just go look at the catl density numbers all the stuff they have going into production. Obviously has not scaled to the level it needs to. That's a big ramp up. I believe the current numbers are 160 Watt hours per kilogram for sodium ion and a little over 200 for lfp. With cell to pack projections of 90%, while pack density of nmc is like 60-70% to the cooling and safety system requirements, sodium ion is a revolutionary development for the cheap EV. The five year road maps for sodium ion gets it close to 200 watt hours per kilogram. Lfp should be reaching 250 Watt hours per kilogram in the next five years.
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  Name me one mass produced consumer car that uses saltwater batteries.
  - vardump 2y ago
    Here seems to be one what the grandparent suggested, an EV with a SIB battery. https://www.electrive.com/2024/01/02/first-sodium-ion-battery-evs-go-into-serial-production-in-china/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/01/02/first-sodium-ion-batter...
    - hnlmorg 2y ago
      China specific. So not really mass market. Though I am glad to see that there are cars entering the market with sodium ion batteries. That does give me hope for the long term future of EV.
      - vardump 2y ago
        Wait until 2030'ies. Then you're going to see cheap mass market SIB EVs. Tuning SIB chemistry and getting enough factory capacity up takes a while.
goodpoint 2y ago
> Even thought I'd agree mass EV would not be carried by the current grid In many places putting solar panels on roofs and on parking spaces would solve such issue.
- xxs 2y ago
  Talk about North Europe winters - all the forever gray (and snow)
  - keyboardcaper 2y ago
    Have you ever been to North Europe in the winter?
    - xxs 2y ago
      >ever been to North Europe No need for personal snark comments. Not everybody lives in the US. The worst part moving there was surviving the lack of sun light during the winter but that was many years back.
  - cassepipe 2y ago
    ...and windy ?
  - goodpoint 2y ago
    https://globalwindatlas.info/en https://globalwindatlas.info/en and https://globalsolaratlas.info/map https://globalsolaratlas.info/map
hnlmorg 2y ago
Maybe “rare” was a poor choice, but it’s definitely harmful to mine for and the recycling story is far from solved so there’s a serious risk of having these harmful components ending up in landfills (I hope it doesn’t come to that)

by xxs 2y ago

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

On top of that, the commenter is completely ignorant of the rise of saltwater batteries which don't even use lithium. Also probably unaware that with the rise of extremely low cost, solar and wind, Fossil fuel use on the grid is economically nonviable long term. Even so, the fossil fuels consumed on the grid are very likely to be combined cycle natural gas, which has less carbon emissions than have equivalent. Amounts of energy were burned in ice engines. Also, The energy efficiency of electric vehicles is much higher than an ice car, so if solar and wind do not generate the electricity, it still will emit less carbon than an ice. The only useful new engine technology I am interested in is an extremely compact recharging engine for use in plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. There was something about the inside out rotary engine a couple years ago but nothing has come off of it.

xxs 2y ago
>On top of that, the commenter is completely ignorant of the rise of saltwater batteries which don't even use lithium. I'd not call the rise, yet. The Na ones' energy density (and specific energy) is even lower than Li based (LiFePO4 is lower than cobalt ones). They might be okay for grid storage, of course.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  Saltwater batteries and lfp batteries don't require nearly as much active heating and safety measures as nmc chemistries. So the pack level they become a lot more competitive. Rise of high density, salt, water and lfp. We should be able to produce 300 and 400 mile range sedans with sodium ion and LFP chemistries. Just go look at the catl density numbers all the stuff they have going into production. Obviously has not scaled to the level it needs to. That's a big ramp up. I believe the current numbers are 160 Watt hours per kilogram for sodium ion and a little over 200 for lfp. With cell to pack projections of 90%, while pack density of nmc is like 60-70% to the cooling and safety system requirements, sodium ion is a revolutionary development for the cheap EV. The five year road maps for sodium ion gets it close to 200 watt hours per kilogram. Lfp should be reaching 250 Watt hours per kilogram in the next five years.
hnlmorg 2y ago
Name me one mass produced consumer car that uses saltwater batteries.
- vardump 2y ago
  Here seems to be one what the grandparent suggested, an EV with a SIB battery. https://www.electrive.com/2024/01/02/first-sodium-ion-battery-evs-go-into-serial-production-in-china/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/01/02/first-sodium-ion-batter...
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    China specific. So not really mass market. Though I am glad to see that there are cars entering the market with sodium ion batteries. That does give me hope for the long term future of EV.
    - vardump 2y ago
      Wait until 2030'ies. Then you're going to see cheap mass market SIB EVs. Tuning SIB chemistry and getting enough factory capacity up takes a while.

goodpoint 2y ago

> Even thought I'd agree mass EV would not be carried by the current grid In many places putting solar panels on roofs and on parking spaces would solve such issue.

xxs 2y ago
Talk about North Europe winters - all the forever gray (and snow)
- keyboardcaper 2y ago
  Have you ever been to North Europe in the winter?
  - xxs 2y ago
    >ever been to North Europe No need for personal snark comments. Not everybody lives in the US. The worst part moving there was surviving the lack of sun light during the winter but that was many years back.
- cassepipe 2y ago
  ...and windy ?
- goodpoint 2y ago
  https://globalwindatlas.info/en https://globalwindatlas.info/en and https://globalsolaratlas.info/map https://globalsolaratlas.info/map

hnlmorg 2y ago

Maybe “rare” was a poor choice, but it’s definitely harmful to mine for and the recycling story is far from solved so there’s a serious risk of having these harmful components ending up in landfills (I hope it doesn’t come to that)