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Electric cars still consume fossil fuels. It’s just earlier in the pipeline. People love to talk about combustion engines being pollutants but few people talk

Electric cars still consume fossil fuels. It’s just earlier in the pipeline. People love to talk about combustion engines being pollutants but few people talk about just how damaging it is mining for rare metals to make those batteries. Nor how harmful for the environment it is disposing of old batters (we haven’t yet solved the problem of recycling them either). And that’s before you even touch on problems at the power grid. Eg many addresses don’t have high quality enough power infrastructure to cope with everyone switching to electric, so that would need to be upgraded. And a lot of countries still rely on fossil fuels to generate electricity to begin with. Electric cars are likely the future. But they’re not as green as people like to think. In fact for some use cases they can actually work out both more expensive to run and less environmentally friendly once you total up their carbon footprint in full. And I think it’s going to be a long time before they become the greener option of everyone. Whereas in the meantime, research into combustion engines can provide benefits for more than just petrol-fuelled sports cars.

xxs 2y ago
>how damaging it is mining for rare metals to make those batteries. Even thought I'd agree mass EV would not be carried by the current grid, or that charging density and time is not satisfactory (in most of Europe)... LiFePO4 doesn't contain rare earth metals, unless you count Li for 'rare'.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  On top of that, the commenter is completely ignorant of the rise of saltwater batteries which don't even use lithium. Also probably unaware that with the rise of extremely low cost, solar and wind, Fossil fuel use on the grid is economically nonviable long term. Even so, the fossil fuels consumed on the grid are very likely to be combined cycle natural gas, which has less carbon emissions than have equivalent. Amounts of energy were burned in ice engines. Also, The energy efficiency of electric vehicles is much higher than an ice car, so if solar and wind do not generate the electricity, it still will emit less carbon than an ice. The only useful new engine technology I am interested in is an extremely compact recharging engine for use in plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. There was something about the inside out rotary engine a couple years ago but nothing has come off of it.
  - xxs 2y ago
    >On top of that, the commenter is completely ignorant of the rise of saltwater batteries which don't even use lithium. I'd not call the rise, yet. The Na ones' energy density (and specific energy) is even lower than Li based (LiFePO4 is lower than cobalt ones). They might be okay for grid storage, of course.
    - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
      Saltwater batteries and lfp batteries don't require nearly as much active heating and safety measures as nmc chemistries. So the pack level they become a lot more competitive. Rise of high density, salt, water and lfp. We should be able to produce 300 and 400 mile range sedans with sodium ion and LFP chemistries. Just go look at the catl density numbers all the stuff they have going into production. Obviously has not scaled to the level it needs to. That's a big ramp up. I believe the current numbers are 160 Watt hours per kilogram for sodium ion and a little over 200 for lfp. With cell to pack projections of 90%, while pack density of nmc is like 60-70% to the cooling and safety system requirements, sodium ion is a revolutionary development for the cheap EV. The five year road maps for sodium ion gets it close to 200 watt hours per kilogram. Lfp should be reaching 250 Watt hours per kilogram in the next five years.
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    Name me one mass produced consumer car that uses saltwater batteries.
    - vardump 2y ago
      Here seems to be one what the grandparent suggested, an EV with a SIB battery. https://www.electrive.com/2024/01/02/first-sodium-ion-battery-evs-go-into-serial-production-in-china/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/01/02/first-sodium-ion-batter...
      - hnlmorg 2y ago
        China specific. So not really mass market. Though I am glad to see that there are cars entering the market with sodium ion batteries. That does give me hope for the long term future of EV.
- goodpoint 2y ago
  > Even thought I'd agree mass EV would not be carried by the current grid In many places putting solar panels on roofs and on parking spaces would solve such issue.
  - xxs 2y ago
    Talk about North Europe winters - all the forever gray (and snow)
    - keyboardcaper 2y ago
      Have you ever been to North Europe in the winter?
      - xxs 2y ago
        >ever been to North Europe No need for personal snark comments. Not everybody lives in the US. The worst part moving there was surviving the lack of sun light during the winter but that was many years back.
    - cassepipe 2y ago
      ...and windy ?
    - goodpoint 2y ago
      https://globalwindatlas.info/en https://globalwindatlas.info/en and https://globalsolaratlas.info/map https://globalsolaratlas.info/map
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  Maybe “rare” was a poor choice, but it’s definitely harmful to mine for and the recycling story is far from solved so there’s a serious risk of having these harmful components ending up in landfills (I hope it doesn’t come to that)
mjamesaustin 2y ago
Most of these claims are dramatically false. - Electric motors use low amounts of rare earth metals, or in some cases none. Batteries generally don't use them either. - Automotive batteries have been demonstrated as >90% recyclable, far better than most materials we consider "recyclable" today such as plastic - The electric grid has sufficient capacity to onboard millions of electric cars without issue, and will not be impacted by the transition to EVs - Cost of ownership of EVs is significantly lower than ICE vehicles in their class, as is the lifetime carbon footprint
- guax 2y ago
  Considering how early we get rid of cars that are still usable. I wonder how well the cost of ownership actually holds over when a battery change can overshadow many years of maintenance of an ICE. I really think as soon as batteries get even cheaper and denser there will be no chance for ICEs to be dominant but right now the balance is still against the change.
- azherebtsov 2y ago
  I’m particularly interested in last three points. Do you mind to share some data? For instance, where one recycle a Tesla battery, say in Poland? I do not see to many chargers around and I believe the grid is not very modern here. Why do you think it can easily handle millions EVs? What about peak hours like nights? Do you think it will be env friendly, provided that majority of electricity in Poland is produced on coal plants. EV initial cost is about 5-10 times more than a slightly used ICE in a perfect condition. Such a car car drive decades and will never reach in total spendings even initial cost of EV. I’m not counting charging that may not be very cheap. As electricity prices went up in recent years and may go up more. When you stating something, think beyond your household. Your statements are not universal.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    The battery can be recycled in Germany if Poland doesn't have the facility.
    - 2y ago
flir 2y ago
> less environmentally friendly once you total up their carbon footprint in full I'm trying to think of an example, and I'm honestly coming up blank.
roywiggins 2y ago
> few people talk about just how damaging it is mining for rare metals to make those batteries thank goodness oil production isn't damaging at all and has zero cost, then if you're going to talk about mining, every other environmental cost of the fossil fuel lifecycle is fair game. how confident are you that oil and gas come out ahead?
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  I’m not claiming oil mining comes out ahead either. I’m just saying the environmental cost of EV suffers from a lot of greenwashing. They’re not always as green as people like to think. Unfortunately, this is a massively complicated subject and it’s hard to definitively make claims because there’s also a large element of locality (where you live) and user-specific circumstances (like how long you keep a car, how often you drive, etc) My original comment was just that it’s easy to say “EV is the future” but really we need to be extremely mindful that EV still has a long way to go itself and thus we shouldn’t be dismissive of any research happening in the automotive industry.
dyauspitr 2y ago
Maybe now they do but once you get everything on the electric standard it’s a matter of gradually switching over to a fully renewable grid.
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  Oh absolutely. I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t be investing in EV nor renewables. I’m just saying the case with EVs isn’t as simple as some like to generalise.
thebruce87m 2y ago
Many of the myths you are posting are busted here: https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-ab... The national grid in the UK was so fed up with people making claims about the grid capacity it also busted some too: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/ele... > The highest peak electricity demand in the UK in recent years was 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency. > Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle. > Nevertheless, at National Grid we’re working with the distribution networks, government, the regulator and industry to provide the green energy infrastructure around Britain – the wires, the connections to charge points – to support the needs of a decarbonised transport network into the future. > In the US, the grid is equally capable of handling more EVs on the roads – by the time 80% of the US owns an EV, this will only translate into a 10-15% increase in electricity consumption.1
- citrin_ru 2y ago
  > Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency. Energy demand in UK declining because prices went up which accelerated deindustrialisation and forced people's to use less energy e. g. heat homes less .
  - JohnVideogames 2y ago
    British homes are almost exclusively heated by natural gas boilers; home heating is only a small part of the grid electrical load.
    - citrin_ru 2y ago
      Yes, gas heating is common (thought in apartment buildings electric heating is more likely) but electricity and gas prices are correlated for now.
locallost 2y ago
On top of all the other replies debunking this, one thing left is that they're not the greener option for everyone. Auke Hoekstra has been pretty active (on Twitter etc) debunking this - electric cars' additional footprint gets paid off under 20k miles even at the emission levels of electricity grids of yesterday. As the grid decarbonizes further it will become even less. The number of cars driven less than 20k miles is irrelevantly tiny. https://x.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1332464525602410498 https://x.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1332464525602410498
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  Did you actually read my comment and the replies? Because most of the replies didn’t even address the points I was making, let alone debunk it. Just like with your post. I never actually made any claims about mileages. However as it happens, I do specifically fall into that uneconomical bracket. That’s why I ended up buying petrol despite wanting an EV. I work from home and thus rarely drive. EV isn’t yet ready for my specific use case. It will get there, but it’s not there today. And thus we are back to the crux of point is was making: that this topic is far more complicated than the OP suggested.
  - locallost 2y ago
    I read it carefully. Your claim was it's not greener for everyone. It is because the additional costs in terms of emissions are paid off in less than 20k miles. This is a little bit more than the average per year. It's possible a car travels less than that during its life span, but it's so small it's irrelevant. That's like saying it makes financial sense playing the lottery just because someone occasionally wins.
    - hnlmorg 2y ago
      > Your claim was it's not greener for everyone. No, my point was “EVs aren’t all that green either”. Things are going to improve. But people so often forgot about all the other environmental costs involved with EV. In an ideal world we’d be using push bikes, but clearly that’s not practical either. However it’s fair to say that this whole transportation debate is a lot more complicated than people like to summarise. > It is because the additional costs in terms of emissions are paid off in less than 20k miles. Again, that was never my claim. That’s a strawman argument you’ve constructed.
hnlmorg 2y ago
I’m getting a lot of hate for my comment but actually you’re all missing the point. I’m not suggesting people shouldn’t buy EV nor that EV isn’t greener than ICE. What I actually said is that EV still does a lot of harm to the environment and it’s a long way from being the saviour to our private transportation woes that a lot of people like to greenwash it as. Does this mean that we shouldn’t buy EVs? Of course not. But it also means: - we shouldn’t put all of our eggs into one basket. Research into other engines still brings us gains - for some specific individuals, EVs are yet the best choice for their needs The problem we have in this thread is everybody is jumping to one extreme or the other rather than acknowledging that this is actually a massively complex topic and thus theres going to be a lot of contextual factors and shades of grey. So please don’t assume I’m trying to spread FUD about EVs just because I’m promoting awareness that we still have a lot more work to do before mass produced cars of any design becomes green.

xxs 2y ago

>how damaging it is mining for rare metals to make those batteries. Even thought I'd agree mass EV would not be carried by the current grid, or that charging density and time is not satisfactory (in most of Europe)... LiFePO4 doesn't contain rare earth metals, unless you count Li for 'rare'.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
On top of that, the commenter is completely ignorant of the rise of saltwater batteries which don't even use lithium. Also probably unaware that with the rise of extremely low cost, solar and wind, Fossil fuel use on the grid is economically nonviable long term. Even so, the fossil fuels consumed on the grid are very likely to be combined cycle natural gas, which has less carbon emissions than have equivalent. Amounts of energy were burned in ice engines. Also, The energy efficiency of electric vehicles is much higher than an ice car, so if solar and wind do not generate the electricity, it still will emit less carbon than an ice. The only useful new engine technology I am interested in is an extremely compact recharging engine for use in plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. There was something about the inside out rotary engine a couple years ago but nothing has come off of it.
- xxs 2y ago
  >On top of that, the commenter is completely ignorant of the rise of saltwater batteries which don't even use lithium. I'd not call the rise, yet. The Na ones' energy density (and specific energy) is even lower than Li based (LiFePO4 is lower than cobalt ones). They might be okay for grid storage, of course.
  - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
    Saltwater batteries and lfp batteries don't require nearly as much active heating and safety measures as nmc chemistries. So the pack level they become a lot more competitive. Rise of high density, salt, water and lfp. We should be able to produce 300 and 400 mile range sedans with sodium ion and LFP chemistries. Just go look at the catl density numbers all the stuff they have going into production. Obviously has not scaled to the level it needs to. That's a big ramp up. I believe the current numbers are 160 Watt hours per kilogram for sodium ion and a little over 200 for lfp. With cell to pack projections of 90%, while pack density of nmc is like 60-70% to the cooling and safety system requirements, sodium ion is a revolutionary development for the cheap EV. The five year road maps for sodium ion gets it close to 200 watt hours per kilogram. Lfp should be reaching 250 Watt hours per kilogram in the next five years.
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  Name me one mass produced consumer car that uses saltwater batteries.
  - vardump 2y ago
    Here seems to be one what the grandparent suggested, an EV with a SIB battery. https://www.electrive.com/2024/01/02/first-sodium-ion-battery-evs-go-into-serial-production-in-china/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/01/02/first-sodium-ion-batter...
    - hnlmorg 2y ago
      China specific. So not really mass market. Though I am glad to see that there are cars entering the market with sodium ion batteries. That does give me hope for the long term future of EV.
goodpoint 2y ago
> Even thought I'd agree mass EV would not be carried by the current grid In many places putting solar panels on roofs and on parking spaces would solve such issue.
- xxs 2y ago
  Talk about North Europe winters - all the forever gray (and snow)
  - keyboardcaper 2y ago
    Have you ever been to North Europe in the winter?
    - xxs 2y ago
      >ever been to North Europe No need for personal snark comments. Not everybody lives in the US. The worst part moving there was surviving the lack of sun light during the winter but that was many years back.
  - cassepipe 2y ago
    ...and windy ?
  - goodpoint 2y ago
    https://globalwindatlas.info/en https://globalwindatlas.info/en and https://globalsolaratlas.info/map https://globalsolaratlas.info/map
hnlmorg 2y ago
Maybe “rare” was a poor choice, but it’s definitely harmful to mine for and the recycling story is far from solved so there’s a serious risk of having these harmful components ending up in landfills (I hope it doesn’t come to that)

mjamesaustin 2y ago

Most of these claims are dramatically false. - Electric motors use low amounts of rare earth metals, or in some cases none. Batteries generally don't use them either. - Automotive batteries have been demonstrated as >90% recyclable, far better than most materials we consider "recyclable" today such as plastic - The electric grid has sufficient capacity to onboard millions of electric cars without issue, and will not be impacted by the transition to EVs - Cost of ownership of EVs is significantly lower than ICE vehicles in their class, as is the lifetime carbon footprint

guax 2y ago
Considering how early we get rid of cars that are still usable. I wonder how well the cost of ownership actually holds over when a battery change can overshadow many years of maintenance of an ICE. I really think as soon as batteries get even cheaper and denser there will be no chance for ICEs to be dominant but right now the balance is still against the change.
azherebtsov 2y ago
I’m particularly interested in last three points. Do you mind to share some data? For instance, where one recycle a Tesla battery, say in Poland? I do not see to many chargers around and I believe the grid is not very modern here. Why do you think it can easily handle millions EVs? What about peak hours like nights? Do you think it will be env friendly, provided that majority of electricity in Poland is produced on coal plants. EV initial cost is about 5-10 times more than a slightly used ICE in a perfect condition. Such a car car drive decades and will never reach in total spendings even initial cost of EV. I’m not counting charging that may not be very cheap. As electricity prices went up in recent years and may go up more. When you stating something, think beyond your household. Your statements are not universal.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  The battery can be recycled in Germany if Poland doesn't have the facility.
  - 2y ago

flir 2y ago

> less environmentally friendly once you total up their carbon footprint in full I'm trying to think of an example, and I'm honestly coming up blank.

roywiggins 2y ago

> few people talk about just how damaging it is mining for rare metals to make those batteries thank goodness oil production isn't damaging at all and has zero cost, then if you're going to talk about mining, every other environmental cost of the fossil fuel lifecycle is fair game. how confident are you that oil and gas come out ahead?

hnlmorg 2y ago
I’m not claiming oil mining comes out ahead either. I’m just saying the environmental cost of EV suffers from a lot of greenwashing. They’re not always as green as people like to think. Unfortunately, this is a massively complicated subject and it’s hard to definitively make claims because there’s also a large element of locality (where you live) and user-specific circumstances (like how long you keep a car, how often you drive, etc) My original comment was just that it’s easy to say “EV is the future” but really we need to be extremely mindful that EV still has a long way to go itself and thus we shouldn’t be dismissive of any research happening in the automotive industry.

dyauspitr 2y ago

Maybe now they do but once you get everything on the electric standard it’s a matter of gradually switching over to a fully renewable grid.

hnlmorg 2y ago
Oh absolutely. I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t be investing in EV nor renewables. I’m just saying the case with EVs isn’t as simple as some like to generalise.

thebruce87m 2y ago

Many of the myths you are posting are busted here: https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-ab... The national grid in the UK was so fed up with people making claims about the grid capacity it also busted some too: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/ele... > The highest peak electricity demand in the UK in recent years was 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency. > Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle. > Nevertheless, at National Grid we’re working with the distribution networks, government, the regulator and industry to provide the green energy infrastructure around Britain – the wires, the connections to charge points – to support the needs of a decarbonised transport network into the future. > In the US, the grid is equally capable of handling more EVs on the roads – by the time 80% of the US owns an EV, this will only translate into a 10-15% increase in electricity consumption.1

citrin_ru 2y ago
> Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency. Energy demand in UK declining because prices went up which accelerated deindustrialisation and forced people's to use less energy e. g. heat homes less .
- JohnVideogames 2y ago
  British homes are almost exclusively heated by natural gas boilers; home heating is only a small part of the grid electrical load.
  - citrin_ru 2y ago
    Yes, gas heating is common (thought in apartment buildings electric heating is more likely) but electricity and gas prices are correlated for now.

locallost 2y ago

On top of all the other replies debunking this, one thing left is that they're not the greener option for everyone. Auke Hoekstra has been pretty active (on Twitter etc) debunking this - electric cars' additional footprint gets paid off under 20k miles even at the emission levels of electricity grids of yesterday. As the grid decarbonizes further it will become even less. The number of cars driven less than 20k miles is irrelevantly tiny. https://x.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1332464525602410498 https://x.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1332464525602410498

hnlmorg 2y ago
Did you actually read my comment and the replies? Because most of the replies didn’t even address the points I was making, let alone debunk it. Just like with your post. I never actually made any claims about mileages. However as it happens, I do specifically fall into that uneconomical bracket. That’s why I ended up buying petrol despite wanting an EV. I work from home and thus rarely drive. EV isn’t yet ready for my specific use case. It will get there, but it’s not there today. And thus we are back to the crux of point is was making: that this topic is far more complicated than the OP suggested.
- locallost 2y ago
  I read it carefully. Your claim was it's not greener for everyone. It is because the additional costs in terms of emissions are paid off in less than 20k miles. This is a little bit more than the average per year. It's possible a car travels less than that during its life span, but it's so small it's irrelevant. That's like saying it makes financial sense playing the lottery just because someone occasionally wins.
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    > Your claim was it's not greener for everyone. No, my point was “EVs aren’t all that green either”. Things are going to improve. But people so often forgot about all the other environmental costs involved with EV. In an ideal world we’d be using push bikes, but clearly that’s not practical either. However it’s fair to say that this whole transportation debate is a lot more complicated than people like to summarise. > It is because the additional costs in terms of emissions are paid off in less than 20k miles. Again, that was never my claim. That’s a strawman argument you’ve constructed.

hnlmorg 2y ago

I’m getting a lot of hate for my comment but actually you’re all missing the point. I’m not suggesting people shouldn’t buy EV nor that EV isn’t greener than ICE. What I actually said is that EV still does a lot of harm to the environment and it’s a long way from being the saviour to our private transportation woes that a lot of people like to greenwash it as. Does this mean that we shouldn’t buy EVs? Of course not. But it also means: - we shouldn’t put all of our eggs into one basket. Research into other engines still brings us gains - for some specific individuals, EVs are yet the best choice for their needs The problem we have in this thread is everybody is jumping to one extreme or the other rather than acknowledging that this is actually a massively complex topic and thus theres going to be a lot of contextual factors and shades of grey. So please don’t assume I’m trying to spread FUD about EVs just because I’m promoting awareness that we still have a lot more work to do before mass produced cars of any design becomes green.