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I think most people would see not interacting with coworkers in any sociable way aside from video conferences as a net negative. You can’t form relationships th

I think most people would see not interacting with coworkers in any sociable way aside from video conferences as a net negative. You can’t form relationships that way. I think this is a key difference between people in this conundrum: some WFH advocates just see no value in building relationships with workers past the screen. It just doesn’t matter to them at some core level, and they don’t understand why it does for others (who I think are the silent majority). You have more time for relationships outside of work, but for myself I find it much easier to work with others if I have some meaningful concept of who they are, and they have some meaningful concept of who I am.

46Bit 2y ago
> You can’t form relationships that way Plenty of millenials and Gen Z can We've been building groups online ever since we were little
- hanniabu 2y ago
  They think they can, but it's not the same
  - the_gorilla 2y ago
    It's primarily some mental blocker in the old that prevents them from connecting things online to their real-life counterparts. It's like being illiterate and insisting that no one else can read those strange symbols. I'll offer in advance that younger people need to learn to separate the two sometimes.
    - ywvcbk 2y ago
      Or they (some at least) might have a better frame of reference and “the young” people simple don’t know and can’t comprehend what they are losing. My interpretation is on no way less generous than yours.
- lazide 2y ago
  In the same way junk food is equivalent to a healthy meal (IMO). There is a reason some mental health issues have been skyrocketing, and this is a big part of it.
  - sumeno 2y ago
    Gonna need a citation on this one. Not mental health issues increasing, but online communities being the cause
    - lazide 2y ago
      Not ‘online communities being the cause’, rather ‘lack of genuine in person community and physical connection’ being the cause. Same as junk food isn’t necessarily the cause of health issues - rather lack of enough healthy, not processed to the tits food is the cause. Replacing most/all food intake with junk food is going to be bad. Doing it periodically with enough of the ‘real thing’ to compensate? No issues. The issue is not enough of the real deal. Which is possible until something breaks because of the alternative, but not necessary. If you put someone in a capsule in say Antarctica, and they only communicated with other people via video chat - would anyone be surprised if they went crazy? Hell, I think we’d all be surprised if they didn’t. The challenge right now is a lot of people (including many people here) are de facto in that pod in a way that they can’t see, because theoretically they could walk outside and have conversations, etc. They just won’t actually do it, because there are less visible factors pushing them away - factors that in many cases they aren’t allowed to see or acknowledge.
      - redserk 2y ago
        My coworkers are extremely wonderful people, however we aren’t friends. It is possible, and in many places quite easy, to make local friends without relying on coworkers. Facebook Groups has been very helpful to find local groups.
        lazide 2y ago
        It’s also entirely possible, even in the worst ‘food deserts’ to drive to a grocery store and make home cooked food. It’s also pretty easy to demonstrate how there is a direct relationship between how hard that is to do, and obesity and bad health outcomes.
- benfortuna 2y ago
  It may seem normal, if you have never experienced regular in-person relationships (in a work environment). Even after WFH for a long time I think everyone becomes used to it, but there is definitely something missing.
  - viraptor 2y ago
    You really don't need them to be in person. Have you scheduled any lunchtime catch-ups? Got any regular group calls around interests? Just random banter? My work group online is a better experience than I've ever had in the office. It may vary for other people and environments, but "something missing" is not a given just because of remote contact.
- strken 2y ago
  I am a millennial with a few online friend groups and they're not really the same thing. For me those online relationships are loose and impermanent. People are continuously entering the group and continuously leaving never to be seen again. There's some level of trust and stability from meeting in-person that I can never seem to achieve online.
  - lloeki 2y ago
    > For me those online relationships are loose and impermanent I hate to break the news but most relationships simply are loose and impermanent, we just don't usually notice how brittle they actually are. As for trust, is it really reasonable to trust someone more or less just because they've been in front of you vs not? And I mean that both ways: too trusting of people in front of us and not enough of people away.
    - strken 2y ago
      I'm aware that most relationships aren't going to last forever, but the friends I have online are notably less cohesive than the friends I used to work with. I make no claims to reasonableness. We are not creatures of pure reason and our friendships are never totally rational. All I claim is that there's something which ties offline friends to me and I to them, particularly if we've worked together, which is not present for any of my online friend groups.
    - brailsafe 2y ago
      > I hate to break the news but most relationships simply are loose and impermanent, we just don't usually notice how brittle they actually are. Probably true at some level, but I'd wager that's much more common for Gen Z and younger millennials for a variety of reasons, as well as among people who just aren't really authentic, suburbanites, and people who just don't invest in friendship building. However, that's a bit of a silly comparison, online relationships have some value, maybe a lot maybe a little, but they aren't an equal substitute for a friend in meatspace
the_gorilla 2y ago
Most people can establish friendships that are primarily online. It's not "screen relationships" vs "in-person relationships" for me, it's "real relationships" vs "work relationships". The main thing is that I don't want anything to do with coworkers and would choose not to engage with them even in the office. They're not friends, or family, they're coworkers and they come and go with the money. I had one coworker I liked to talk to, but he got a better job somewhere else and that was the end of that relationship. I would prefer to put more time and energy into actual relationships and not at work relationships.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  please understand you are not representative everyone. Most of my friends are coworkers from various points in my career. I also don't care for screen relationships either.
  - the_gorilla 2y ago
    Who else am I representing? Of course I'm representing myself, these are opinions and I'm saying them, which makes them my opinions. The difference is whether you get to force people to go into the office because that's how you make friends.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      For some reason I read your post as a negation or dismissive of the parent post. I dont think there will be a clear solution to the issue. I think companies will sort into those with in person cultures and remote cultures, but there will always be some dissatisfied minority in each one. The burden will then be on the employee. If you dont want to work in person, dont accept an offer with that in the job requirements. Inversely, if you want in person relations, dont join a remote company.
      - the_gorilla 2y ago
        That's fair. I was also trying not to be dismissive. It's just a fundamental difference in how we see work relationships.
hdjjhhvvhga 2y ago
> others (who I think are the silent majority). [citation needed] But let's go to the core of the argument: there are 2 groups, one values social interaction/bonding at work and the other doesn't. One group likes to have a mental image of who other people are, the other group prefers to focus on their work instead. The first group may even find it more difficult to work with someone with "no bond" whereas the other group just goes on with their work. The problem is, each of these groups project their vision of co-operation to the rest, that's why the first group insists on hybrid and the other group on remote-only (fortunately nobody except some PHBs insists on RTO...). If you can't understand the other group, it's difficult to have an agreement. My take is: work for the company that is in accord with your values and the ways you prefer to work. For me it's remote-only and there is no way I would change it, no matter what.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  Even if a company prefers RTW (or partial RTW aka forced hybrid), that doesn't mean every employee does. The mismatch is not ideal. Additionally, this limits the company to either hiring from a fraction of the available talent pool, or enduring the strife you speak of. As a company grows, these issues compound and become more likely to present. That's why the ideal solution here is a choice arrangement (aka flex), where the people who want RTO or Partial RTO can self-organize in the office, and the others can self-organize elsewhere.
mulmen 2y ago
Why should I seek out personal relationships with my coworkers? What relevance does their personal life have on work? What business is it of theirs what I do in my own time? We’re all job hopping to chase salary anyway. Everything in business is ephemeral and shallow. Meaningful relationships happen in the real world, not the office.
- Agingcoder 2y ago
  I want to build relationships with my coworkers because it makes my life better - I like being around people. It also creates strong feelings of trust, which then improves work quality of life, and therefore my work. Furthermore, many people at work don’t treat people they don’t have a relationship with in the same manner as someone they know. People’s personal life and people being interested in you is just that : people. Most people do this naturally for the reasons stated above. Not everyone is job hopping, and I’ve made plenty of friends in the office.
  - consteval 2y ago
    Right, but you can do this outside of work without any of the downsides (i.e. reduced salary, sexual harassment and other HR type complaints, no forced time together). You're paying by not job hopping, and your friends aren't that deep of friends. You bet your ass you can get into hot water with them when you have the corporate power structure standing in between. I don't know why someone would be content taking the risks and downsides of corporate America into their personal relationships. I'd rather gain more time, by working from home, and then using that time to make friendships. And then also hop around and make a bunch of money without guilt.
    - Agingcoder 2y ago
      I don’t live in the US . In my case I’ve made lifelong friends in the office - we’ve had different experiences in our respective jobs.

46Bit 2y ago

> You can’t form relationships that way Plenty of millenials and Gen Z can We've been building groups online ever since we were little

hanniabu 2y ago
They think they can, but it's not the same
- the_gorilla 2y ago
  It's primarily some mental blocker in the old that prevents them from connecting things online to their real-life counterparts. It's like being illiterate and insisting that no one else can read those strange symbols. I'll offer in advance that younger people need to learn to separate the two sometimes.
  - ywvcbk 2y ago
    Or they (some at least) might have a better frame of reference and “the young” people simple don’t know and can’t comprehend what they are losing. My interpretation is on no way less generous than yours.
lazide 2y ago
In the same way junk food is equivalent to a healthy meal (IMO). There is a reason some mental health issues have been skyrocketing, and this is a big part of it.
- sumeno 2y ago
  Gonna need a citation on this one. Not mental health issues increasing, but online communities being the cause
  - lazide 2y ago
    Not ‘online communities being the cause’, rather ‘lack of genuine in person community and physical connection’ being the cause. Same as junk food isn’t necessarily the cause of health issues - rather lack of enough healthy, not processed to the tits food is the cause. Replacing most/all food intake with junk food is going to be bad. Doing it periodically with enough of the ‘real thing’ to compensate? No issues. The issue is not enough of the real deal. Which is possible until something breaks because of the alternative, but not necessary. If you put someone in a capsule in say Antarctica, and they only communicated with other people via video chat - would anyone be surprised if they went crazy? Hell, I think we’d all be surprised if they didn’t. The challenge right now is a lot of people (including many people here) are de facto in that pod in a way that they can’t see, because theoretically they could walk outside and have conversations, etc. They just won’t actually do it, because there are less visible factors pushing them away - factors that in many cases they aren’t allowed to see or acknowledge.
    - redserk 2y ago
      My coworkers are extremely wonderful people, however we aren’t friends. It is possible, and in many places quite easy, to make local friends without relying on coworkers. Facebook Groups has been very helpful to find local groups.
      - lazide 2y ago
        It’s also entirely possible, even in the worst ‘food deserts’ to drive to a grocery store and make home cooked food. It’s also pretty easy to demonstrate how there is a direct relationship between how hard that is to do, and obesity and bad health outcomes.
benfortuna 2y ago
It may seem normal, if you have never experienced regular in-person relationships (in a work environment). Even after WFH for a long time I think everyone becomes used to it, but there is definitely something missing.
- viraptor 2y ago
  You really don't need them to be in person. Have you scheduled any lunchtime catch-ups? Got any regular group calls around interests? Just random banter? My work group online is a better experience than I've ever had in the office. It may vary for other people and environments, but "something missing" is not a given just because of remote contact.
strken 2y ago
I am a millennial with a few online friend groups and they're not really the same thing. For me those online relationships are loose and impermanent. People are continuously entering the group and continuously leaving never to be seen again. There's some level of trust and stability from meeting in-person that I can never seem to achieve online.
- lloeki 2y ago
  > For me those online relationships are loose and impermanent I hate to break the news but most relationships simply are loose and impermanent, we just don't usually notice how brittle they actually are. As for trust, is it really reasonable to trust someone more or less just because they've been in front of you vs not? And I mean that both ways: too trusting of people in front of us and not enough of people away.
  - strken 2y ago
    I'm aware that most relationships aren't going to last forever, but the friends I have online are notably less cohesive than the friends I used to work with. I make no claims to reasonableness. We are not creatures of pure reason and our friendships are never totally rational. All I claim is that there's something which ties offline friends to me and I to them, particularly if we've worked together, which is not present for any of my online friend groups.
  - brailsafe 2y ago
    > I hate to break the news but most relationships simply are loose and impermanent, we just don't usually notice how brittle they actually are. Probably true at some level, but I'd wager that's much more common for Gen Z and younger millennials for a variety of reasons, as well as among people who just aren't really authentic, suburbanites, and people who just don't invest in friendship building. However, that's a bit of a silly comparison, online relationships have some value, maybe a lot maybe a little, but they aren't an equal substitute for a friend in meatspace

the_gorilla 2y ago

Most people can establish friendships that are primarily online. It's not "screen relationships" vs "in-person relationships" for me, it's "real relationships" vs "work relationships". The main thing is that I don't want anything to do with coworkers and would choose not to engage with them even in the office. They're not friends, or family, they're coworkers and they come and go with the money. I had one coworker I liked to talk to, but he got a better job somewhere else and that was the end of that relationship. I would prefer to put more time and energy into actual relationships and not at work relationships.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
please understand you are not representative everyone. Most of my friends are coworkers from various points in my career. I also don't care for screen relationships either.
- the_gorilla 2y ago
  Who else am I representing? Of course I'm representing myself, these are opinions and I'm saying them, which makes them my opinions. The difference is whether you get to force people to go into the office because that's how you make friends.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    For some reason I read your post as a negation or dismissive of the parent post. I dont think there will be a clear solution to the issue. I think companies will sort into those with in person cultures and remote cultures, but there will always be some dissatisfied minority in each one. The burden will then be on the employee. If you dont want to work in person, dont accept an offer with that in the job requirements. Inversely, if you want in person relations, dont join a remote company.
    - the_gorilla 2y ago
      That's fair. I was also trying not to be dismissive. It's just a fundamental difference in how we see work relationships.

hdjjhhvvhga 2y ago

> others (who I think are the silent majority). [citation needed] But let's go to the core of the argument: there are 2 groups, one values social interaction/bonding at work and the other doesn't. One group likes to have a mental image of who other people are, the other group prefers to focus on their work instead. The first group may even find it more difficult to work with someone with "no bond" whereas the other group just goes on with their work. The problem is, each of these groups project their vision of co-operation to the rest, that's why the first group insists on hybrid and the other group on remote-only (fortunately nobody except some PHBs insists on RTO...). If you can't understand the other group, it's difficult to have an agreement. My take is: work for the company that is in accord with your values and the ways you prefer to work. For me it's remote-only and there is no way I would change it, no matter what.

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
Even if a company prefers RTW (or partial RTW aka forced hybrid), that doesn't mean every employee does. The mismatch is not ideal. Additionally, this limits the company to either hiring from a fraction of the available talent pool, or enduring the strife you speak of. As a company grows, these issues compound and become more likely to present. That's why the ideal solution here is a choice arrangement (aka flex), where the people who want RTO or Partial RTO can self-organize in the office, and the others can self-organize elsewhere.

mulmen 2y ago

Why should I seek out personal relationships with my coworkers? What relevance does their personal life have on work? What business is it of theirs what I do in my own time? We’re all job hopping to chase salary anyway. Everything in business is ephemeral and shallow. Meaningful relationships happen in the real world, not the office.

Agingcoder 2y ago
I want to build relationships with my coworkers because it makes my life better - I like being around people. It also creates strong feelings of trust, which then improves work quality of life, and therefore my work. Furthermore, many people at work don’t treat people they don’t have a relationship with in the same manner as someone they know. People’s personal life and people being interested in you is just that : people. Most people do this naturally for the reasons stated above. Not everyone is job hopping, and I’ve made plenty of friends in the office.
- consteval 2y ago
  Right, but you can do this outside of work without any of the downsides (i.e. reduced salary, sexual harassment and other HR type complaints, no forced time together). You're paying by not job hopping, and your friends aren't that deep of friends. You bet your ass you can get into hot water with them when you have the corporate power structure standing in between. I don't know why someone would be content taking the risks and downsides of corporate America into their personal relationships. I'd rather gain more time, by working from home, and then using that time to make friendships. And then also hop around and make a bunch of money without guilt.
  - Agingcoder 2y ago
    I don’t live in the US . In my case I’ve made lifelong friends in the office - we’ve had different experiences in our respective jobs.