5 ms·

The liberals are conservative today and the conservatives are liberal. Old Republicans now support the Democratic party. I fully believe the R's are currently t

The liberals are conservative today and the conservatives are liberal. Old Republicans now support the Democratic party. I fully believe the R's are currently the counter culture and the liberals are staid defenders of "how things should be" like the housewives of the 1950s.

cholantesh 2y ago
If being nakedly reactionary is liberal now, sure, why not?
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  Yeah, if you think the difference between "liberal" on "conservative" is about "change" vs "status quo" rather about outward distribution of power vs. preserving narrow concentration of power, you would tend to view a genuinely reactionary party as "liberal" and a liberal/progressive party that has drawn conservative support against the reactionaries as just "conservative".
  - cholantesh 2y ago
    If you are arguing that the reactionary ethos is about broader distribution of power, this makes even less sense.
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      > If you are arguing that the reactionary ethos is about broader distribution of power No, I literally exactly said the opposite, that you have to misconceptualize "liberal" vs. "conservative" as about change v. stasis rather than distribution of power to mistake "reactionary" for "liberal" and "anti-reactionary coalition" for "conservative".
      - cholantesh 2y ago
        Sorry for misreading!
s1artibartfast 2y ago
There are multiple axes to these things. US liberals are still progressive in that they want to push law and culture into new territory, and republicans are still conservative in that they resist change or want to go backwards. However, it is pretty clear to me that liberals are currently the dominant force in setting and policing culture and behavior. I think this is the the change you are thinking of between the later 1900's and 2000 onwards.
- kcplate 2y ago
  I wish people would stop using “liberal” to describe the left nowadays. The progressive left today is so far away from “liberal” both in the historic understanding and the classical definition of the term that it’s arguably flipped its meaning. It’s a shame but it’s basically now just a term used to categorize anyone who basically aligns with the US Democratic Party. Beliefs behind liberalism be damned, it’s just a political affiliation now.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    yeah, as someone who identifies with Classical liberalism, me too. I tried to fight the tide but it seemed like an uphill battle that spoiled any conversation from the start. The words Liberal and Left both start with the letter L, so I guess they are the same thing now.
    - CaptainFever 2y ago
      Note that leftists specifically hate liberals. "Shitlib" is a slur in the leftist space. The subreddit r/alltheleft has "Leftists > Liberals" as their description, and so on. I believe conservativism is aligned with order, liberalism is aligned with freedom (with libertarianism being the extreme version of it), and leftism is aligned with equality.
piva00 2y ago
I prefer to look at the world in more colours than black and white though. This weird obsession with side A or side B is very boring, actually pretty tiring. The Rs are not counter-culture, they are the exactly same as conservatives always have been: people who deeply believe there's a natural hierarchy to the world, where straying outside of your expected spot in the natural order of things is wrong. Old Republicans now support the Democratic party because the Republicans ceased to be, the party has the same name but has slid further into the belief of a natural order, a party where representatives use violent rhetoric to repulse change instead of policies. I fully believe you don't know what the fuck you are talking about, and I'm not even American...
yieldcrv 2y ago
safe spaces are segregation inclusion of males in women’s advancement being done better by those males I do find it all amusing at the very least, I get the impression that the proponents aren’t familiar with US history so I advocate for “separate but equal” facilities to get buy in for their safe spaces, just for maximum irony I sidestep an opinion by trolling everyone
LastTrain 2y ago
You have it exactly backwards. Conservatives still want it to be 1950 and liberals want to continue our progress.

cholantesh 2y ago

If being nakedly reactionary is liberal now, sure, why not?

dragonwriter 2y ago
Yeah, if you think the difference between "liberal" on "conservative" is about "change" vs "status quo" rather about outward distribution of power vs. preserving narrow concentration of power, you would tend to view a genuinely reactionary party as "liberal" and a liberal/progressive party that has drawn conservative support against the reactionaries as just "conservative".
- cholantesh 2y ago
  If you are arguing that the reactionary ethos is about broader distribution of power, this makes even less sense.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > If you are arguing that the reactionary ethos is about broader distribution of power No, I literally exactly said the opposite, that you have to misconceptualize "liberal" vs. "conservative" as about change v. stasis rather than distribution of power to mistake "reactionary" for "liberal" and "anti-reactionary coalition" for "conservative".
    - cholantesh 2y ago
      Sorry for misreading!

s1artibartfast 2y ago

There are multiple axes to these things. US liberals are still progressive in that they want to push law and culture into new territory, and republicans are still conservative in that they resist change or want to go backwards. However, it is pretty clear to me that liberals are currently the dominant force in setting and policing culture and behavior. I think this is the the change you are thinking of between the later 1900's and 2000 onwards.

kcplate 2y ago
I wish people would stop using “liberal” to describe the left nowadays. The progressive left today is so far away from “liberal” both in the historic understanding and the classical definition of the term that it’s arguably flipped its meaning. It’s a shame but it’s basically now just a term used to categorize anyone who basically aligns with the US Democratic Party. Beliefs behind liberalism be damned, it’s just a political affiliation now.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  yeah, as someone who identifies with Classical liberalism, me too. I tried to fight the tide but it seemed like an uphill battle that spoiled any conversation from the start. The words Liberal and Left both start with the letter L, so I guess they are the same thing now.
  - CaptainFever 2y ago
    Note that leftists specifically hate liberals. "Shitlib" is a slur in the leftist space. The subreddit r/alltheleft has "Leftists > Liberals" as their description, and so on. I believe conservativism is aligned with order, liberalism is aligned with freedom (with libertarianism being the extreme version of it), and leftism is aligned with equality.

piva00 2y ago

I prefer to look at the world in more colours than black and white though. This weird obsession with side A or side B is very boring, actually pretty tiring. The Rs are not counter-culture, they are the exactly same as conservatives always have been: people who deeply believe there's a natural hierarchy to the world, where straying outside of your expected spot in the natural order of things is wrong. Old Republicans now support the Democratic party because the Republicans ceased to be, the party has the same name but has slid further into the belief of a natural order, a party where representatives use violent rhetoric to repulse change instead of policies. I fully believe you don't know what the fuck you are talking about, and I'm not even American...

yieldcrv 2y ago

safe spaces are segregation inclusion of males in women’s advancement being done better by those males I do find it all amusing at the very least, I get the impression that the proponents aren’t familiar with US history so I advocate for “separate but equal” facilities to get buy in for their safe spaces, just for maximum irony I sidestep an opinion by trolling everyone

LastTrain 2y ago

You have it exactly backwards. Conservatives still want it to be 1950 and liberals want to continue our progress.