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> There was a small crowd when the drama was happening suggesting that Rust devs should just go write their own Linux-compatible kernel somewhere else which I f

> There was a small crowd when the drama was happening suggesting that Rust devs should just go write their own Linux-compatible kernel somewhere else which I found... insane. One of the most important skills I found in open source development is separating technical arguments from religious arguments, and choosing to simply ignore the latter. You can spend all your time having the religious debates and feeling very productive while actually getting absolutely nothing done. Learning to recognize the distinction and, crucially, not engage at all when someone is coming at you with a religious argument is incredibly valuable for anyone who is or wants to be in a leadership-ish role in that kind of environment. You've got better things to do with your time than explain to someone why building a whole separate kernel is a stupid idea.

mont_tag 2y ago
"Not engaging at all" allows the engaging group to completely take over and expunge their opposition. The Python Software Foundation is an example. They have multiple former directors banned or resigning. They've defunded African Pycons that won't embrace certain ideologies. PSF employees and work group members are being purged of anyone not fully on board with the new ruling party. The discussion forums are censored and long-term contributors are afraid to post. In general, in democratic organizations it is a failing strategy to not engage in arguments or to boycott elections. It is a recipe for an imbalance that is almost impossible to correct later. So, I respectfully disagree with your suggestion to not engage at all.
- lifty 2y ago
  Really curious, what ideology did the defunded African Pycons fail to embrace?
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
    It's often queer stuff that gets called "ideology" by it's opponents so I'm guessing it's this https://pythonafrica.blogspot.com/2023/12/an-open-letter-to-python-software_5.html?m=1 https://pythonafrica.blogspot.com/2023/12/an-open-letter-to-... > We understand that the argument against support for DjangoCon Africa was that the host country, Tanzania, is not a safe place for the LGBTQIA+ community. That's not as simple as "woke ideology" though. If you don't find the convention, Africa doesn't get a pycon. If you do fund it, you're funding something that excludes queer people. Without knowing any details, I guess they should have been more eager to fund it. then at least some people would benefit
    - AnonCoward42 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - OKRainbowKid 2y ago
        If you consider the promotion of human rights and boycott of countries violating them an ideology, then this is an ideology I can get behind. Sure, you might not care about discrimination against queer people because you're not one of them, just like you might not care about racism against people of color because you're white - but just because it doesn't concern you directly doesn't mean discrimination isn't an issue.
        zarathustreal 2y ago
        All things in moderation, even, and especially, good things. Righteous fervor has killed more than disease and famine combined.
        ImJamal 2y ago
        According to Merriam Webster the definition of an ideology is one of the following > a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture > the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program > a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture I am not sure how it could not be an ideology. Being against racism is an ideological idea as well.
        KronisLV 2y ago
        The writing in that blog post also posits some questions in a manner that doesn’t seem all that good: > What counts as “safety”? Which places in the world are truly safe for LGBTQIA+ community? How much of a city, or state, or country needs to be LGBTQIA+ hostile for the whole of it to be declared unworthy of PSF support? Meanwhile: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tanzania https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tanzania > Homosexuality in Tanzania is a socially taboo topic, and same-sex sexual acts (even in private and consensual) are criminal offences, punishable with life imprisonment. While I have no idea what counts as “truly safe”, that’s definitely not it! I wouldn’t want any of my friends who happen to be queer to go to a place where they might face life imprisonment for the crime of… existing? As far as exclusion goes, that’s a pretty clear case of that, a different venue would be better. Some people might say that if a change of venue isn’t possible (for some reason?) then that means that everyone would miss out on the event if it couldn’t happen, at which point people will probably have different opinions about whether taking a stance on inclusion is worth it or not, depending on their views. Calling it an “ideology” might be unconventional, but maybe not entirely wrong as far as the semantics go (beliefs shared by a group of people) - the same way my “ideology” would be that women also deserve to vote, don’t need to cover their faces with garments if they don’t feel like it etc. The ideology of human rights, I guess. >> "Not engaging at all" allows the engaging group to completely take over and expunge their opposition. I agree with this point, though. Except that in any conflict you should choose yourself on which side you are on, sometimes the engaging group might be right. Can’t comment more on this particular case, just on the linked article and what I read.
  - mont_tag 2y ago
    It's not just Africa. There were discussions about withholding community support from China and Pakistan as well. It's really just a question about what part of the mission statement is the most important. Do you promote the Python language in places that don't meet your diversity objectives? That is a reasonable question. However, one side's failure to engage means that the other viewpoint has won and is now driving everyone else out. Nothing new, just a classic purge of heretics. Back to my original point: It is bad advice to not engage in the discussions. Unbalanced outcomes end up tearing a community apart. ----- "The mission of the Python Software Foundation is to promote, protect, and advance the Python programming language, and to support and facilitate the growth of a diverse and international community of Python programmers."
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  Agreed. And since I agree, I wonder what those "ideologies" were
  - mont_tag 2y ago
    It doesn't really matter. It could have been any contentious difference in strategic direction. The outcome would have been the same. People need to engage or face inevitable takeover and exclusion.
  - daedrdev 2y ago
    Tanzania has life imprisonment for homosexuality, surveys show it has 10% of its population tolerate queer people, and has been committing human rights abuses against the queer community for years as part of its authoritarianism. I think its fair to not run a pycon in a country that is explicitly extremely hostile and dangerous for a wide and respected portion of the python community.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - inquirerGeneral 2y ago
    [dead]
- roenxi 2y ago
  I think the original comment probably had an implicit [ignore isolated actors] as part of the context. Any organisation has to be wary of alternative mission statements overriding their actual mission statement and a failure to engage when that happens generally presages trouble.
  - coldpie 2y ago
    Indeed, and additionally, I was specifically talking about technical issues, not organizational issues. "Should we adopt this tech or not?" kind of stuff. Examples I'm sure we can all relate to: desktop environments, systemd, pulseaudio, programming languages, github/lab vs mailing lists. Lots of religious debates come up to separate out from legitimate technical concerns. Organizational issues are a whole other ballgame. I can see how my original comment was not specific enough about this.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  "Certain idealogies" like communism or what? It's hard to understand what's at stake here if you're using euphemism like this. It sounds like there is conflict over a specific action or policy, what is it?
  - mont_tag 2y ago
    It's a broad conflict, not just a specific action. These blog posts give a flavor of what is going on: * https://ntoll.org/article/psf-woe/ https://ntoll.org/article/psf-woe/ * https://ntoll.org/article/victorian-python-allegory/ https://ntoll.org/article/victorian-python-allegory/ Sorry for using vague terminology. I don't personally keep up with PSF dramas. My point was about communities in general, not just the PSF in particular. To be fair, the dominant group itself also uses vague terminology. The PSF director's linked-in account says, "I'm motivated by the intersection of technology and social justice." Their social media accounts are more specific though: https://x.com/baconandcoconut?lang=en https://x.com/baconandcoconut?lang=en
    - jazzypants 2y ago
      It's hard to look at a situation from the outside, and I genuinely have no clue about the real situation in the Python community. All I know from those blog posts is that this guy has been bitterly claiming that he is going to leave the Python community for six years straight. If he doesn't like it so much, he should stop writing about it. I'm sorry, but I went into those blog posts with an open mind, and all I found was a long list of personal complaints with relatively few details about the actual situation.
ptsneves 2y ago
I disagree, to an extent as you created a dichotomy between tech and religious arguments. The truth is there is a spectrum, where a compiler error is a purely technical discussion. On the other hand of the spectrum are loosely related to tech like, "I need to see more from you before we tackle bigger changes". Open source is definitely very political and if you are not political you will find you will produce lots of technical output that will never be merged. There is also lots of etiquette that can go to using mailing list and patchset formatting to knowing who to ask to review. When you talk about design changes you better have credibility, as your design might not even be evaluated if you do not have a track record. I really disagree with your comment and in my experience with lots of OSS different projects i contributed to, i can tell you politics is equal or more important than raw technical competence the bigger the project is.

mont_tag 2y ago

"Not engaging at all" allows the engaging group to completely take over and expunge their opposition. The Python Software Foundation is an example. They have multiple former directors banned or resigning. They've defunded African Pycons that won't embrace certain ideologies. PSF employees and work group members are being purged of anyone not fully on board with the new ruling party. The discussion forums are censored and long-term contributors are afraid to post. In general, in democratic organizations it is a failing strategy to not engage in arguments or to boycott elections. It is a recipe for an imbalance that is almost impossible to correct later. So, I respectfully disagree with your suggestion to not engage at all.

lifty 2y ago
Really curious, what ideology did the defunded African Pycons fail to embrace?
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  It's often queer stuff that gets called "ideology" by it's opponents so I'm guessing it's this https://pythonafrica.blogspot.com/2023/12/an-open-letter-to-python-software_5.html?m=1 https://pythonafrica.blogspot.com/2023/12/an-open-letter-to-... > We understand that the argument against support for DjangoCon Africa was that the host country, Tanzania, is not a safe place for the LGBTQIA+ community. That's not as simple as "woke ideology" though. If you don't find the convention, Africa doesn't get a pycon. If you do fund it, you're funding something that excludes queer people. Without knowing any details, I guess they should have been more eager to fund it. then at least some people would benefit
  - AnonCoward42 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - OKRainbowKid 2y ago
      If you consider the promotion of human rights and boycott of countries violating them an ideology, then this is an ideology I can get behind. Sure, you might not care about discrimination against queer people because you're not one of them, just like you might not care about racism against people of color because you're white - but just because it doesn't concern you directly doesn't mean discrimination isn't an issue.
      - zarathustreal 2y ago
        All things in moderation, even, and especially, good things. Righteous fervor has killed more than disease and famine combined.
      - ImJamal 2y ago
        According to Merriam Webster the definition of an ideology is one of the following > a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture > the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program > a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture I am not sure how it could not be an ideology. Being against racism is an ideological idea as well.
      - KronisLV 2y ago
        The writing in that blog post also posits some questions in a manner that doesn’t seem all that good: > What counts as “safety”? Which places in the world are truly safe for LGBTQIA+ community? How much of a city, or state, or country needs to be LGBTQIA+ hostile for the whole of it to be declared unworthy of PSF support? Meanwhile: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tanzania https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tanzania > Homosexuality in Tanzania is a socially taboo topic, and same-sex sexual acts (even in private and consensual) are criminal offences, punishable with life imprisonment. While I have no idea what counts as “truly safe”, that’s definitely not it! I wouldn’t want any of my friends who happen to be queer to go to a place where they might face life imprisonment for the crime of… existing? As far as exclusion goes, that’s a pretty clear case of that, a different venue would be better. Some people might say that if a change of venue isn’t possible (for some reason?) then that means that everyone would miss out on the event if it couldn’t happen, at which point people will probably have different opinions about whether taking a stance on inclusion is worth it or not, depending on their views. Calling it an “ideology” might be unconventional, but maybe not entirely wrong as far as the semantics go (beliefs shared by a group of people) - the same way my “ideology” would be that women also deserve to vote, don’t need to cover their faces with garments if they don’t feel like it etc. The ideology of human rights, I guess. >> "Not engaging at all" allows the engaging group to completely take over and expunge their opposition. I agree with this point, though. Except that in any conflict you should choose yourself on which side you are on, sometimes the engaging group might be right. Can’t comment more on this particular case, just on the linked article and what I read.
- mont_tag 2y ago
  It's not just Africa. There were discussions about withholding community support from China and Pakistan as well. It's really just a question about what part of the mission statement is the most important. Do you promote the Python language in places that don't meet your diversity objectives? That is a reasonable question. However, one side's failure to engage means that the other viewpoint has won and is now driving everyone else out. Nothing new, just a classic purge of heretics. Back to my original point: It is bad advice to not engage in the discussions. Unbalanced outcomes end up tearing a community apart. ----- "The mission of the Python Software Foundation is to promote, protect, and advance the Python programming language, and to support and facilitate the growth of a diverse and international community of Python programmers."
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
Agreed. And since I agree, I wonder what those "ideologies" were
- mont_tag 2y ago
  It doesn't really matter. It could have been any contentious difference in strategic direction. The outcome would have been the same. People need to engage or face inevitable takeover and exclusion.
- daedrdev 2y ago
  Tanzania has life imprisonment for homosexuality, surveys show it has 10% of its population tolerate queer people, and has been committing human rights abuses against the queer community for years as part of its authoritarianism. I think its fair to not run a pycon in a country that is explicitly extremely hostile and dangerous for a wide and respected portion of the python community.
llm_trw 2y ago
[flagged]
- inquirerGeneral 2y ago
  [dead]
roenxi 2y ago
I think the original comment probably had an implicit [ignore isolated actors] as part of the context. Any organisation has to be wary of alternative mission statements overriding their actual mission statement and a failure to engage when that happens generally presages trouble.
- coldpie 2y ago
  Indeed, and additionally, I was specifically talking about technical issues, not organizational issues. "Should we adopt this tech or not?" kind of stuff. Examples I'm sure we can all relate to: desktop environments, systemd, pulseaudio, programming languages, github/lab vs mailing lists. Lots of religious debates come up to separate out from legitimate technical concerns. Organizational issues are a whole other ballgame. I can see how my original comment was not specific enough about this.
giraffe_lady 2y ago
"Certain idealogies" like communism or what? It's hard to understand what's at stake here if you're using euphemism like this. It sounds like there is conflict over a specific action or policy, what is it?
- mont_tag 2y ago
  It's a broad conflict, not just a specific action. These blog posts give a flavor of what is going on: * https://ntoll.org/article/psf-woe/ https://ntoll.org/article/psf-woe/ * https://ntoll.org/article/victorian-python-allegory/ https://ntoll.org/article/victorian-python-allegory/ Sorry for using vague terminology. I don't personally keep up with PSF dramas. My point was about communities in general, not just the PSF in particular. To be fair, the dominant group itself also uses vague terminology. The PSF director's linked-in account says, "I'm motivated by the intersection of technology and social justice." Their social media accounts are more specific though: https://x.com/baconandcoconut?lang=en https://x.com/baconandcoconut?lang=en
  - jazzypants 2y ago
    It's hard to look at a situation from the outside, and I genuinely have no clue about the real situation in the Python community. All I know from those blog posts is that this guy has been bitterly claiming that he is going to leave the Python community for six years straight. If he doesn't like it so much, he should stop writing about it. I'm sorry, but I went into those blog posts with an open mind, and all I found was a long list of personal complaints with relatively few details about the actual situation.

ptsneves 2y ago

I disagree, to an extent as you created a dichotomy between tech and religious arguments. The truth is there is a spectrum, where a compiler error is a purely technical discussion. On the other hand of the spectrum are loosely related to tech like, "I need to see more from you before we tackle bigger changes". Open source is definitely very political and if you are not political you will find you will produce lots of technical output that will never be merged. There is also lots of etiquette that can go to using mailing list and patchset formatting to knowing who to ask to review. When you talk about design changes you better have credibility, as your design might not even be evaluated if you do not have a track record. I really disagree with your comment and in my experience with lots of OSS different projects i contributed to, i can tell you politics is equal or more important than raw technical competence the bigger the project is.