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A lot of classic software essentially worked more like a database. In the last 10-15 years it's all moving to an algorithm. Here is what I mean. Photos apps

A lot of classic software essentially worked more like a database. In the last 10-15 years it's all moving to an algorithm. Here is what I mean. Photos apps used to let you search through your photos using filters. The same kinds of things are happening on the web which already happened to apps (desktop and mobile). In the modern world, some marketing company wants to tell YOU which of YOUR photos you wanted, so they can sell you some prints, harvest your data, or something. I would like any apps that have to do with collections of files, photos, music, etc to be more of a deterministic DATABASE and less of a nondeterministic algorithm.

wolpoli 2y ago
> A lot of classic software essentially worked more like a database. In the last 10-15 years it's all moving to an algorithm. You just described what I missed about the older software. Older software gives users control over sorting and show data in a tabular format. Modern software sorts data with an algorithm, with ads mixed in, and shows data in a card format, making it a lot less usable.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Exactly. My related observation: half of the SaaS products I see would be more useful and ergonomic for the user if they were implemented as an Excel sheet. (I actually worked for one of such "better off as an .xls file" startup in the past, and its main competitor was an incumbent that sold the same stuff as an Excel extension. Trying to replace that with a React app is not a worthwhile use of life.) Algorithms are fine. I'll happily apply the most advanced ones I can get. The problem is with who applies them to what - as you and GP said, it's about user control - or, currently, lack of.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    Excel is great until it you need to do something that takes up more space than a single screen. Then it isn't. Sending sqlite databases to the users which they can interact with using both sql and a viewer is where it's at.
    - jkaplowitz 2y ago
      I wonder if being a more powerful backing data store for Excel is one of the remaining reasonable uses for Microsoft Access, at least for users of the Windows desktop version of Office? Access is still included in many editions of that (although not on Mac or web or mobile). Officially it’s even still supported and not deprecated, although of course it’s very much not emphasized by MS any more. Other options might be SQL Server Express or SQL Server Express LocalDB, the latter of which seems conceptually very much like SQLite within the MS ecosystem, and both of which are usable for production purposes at no cost within the technical limitations that differentiate them from paid editions.
  - samarthr1 2y ago
    The SaaS I am now working for is a react app + some fancy intelligence. We are not front-end people, so the app is built with the expectation that people will be doing their filtering, searching and using the intelligence we provide, but in their home turf (excel). Our app also lets users "track" certain events, and we do not use push notifications, rather we respect our user's attention and email them a short summary, and link to a csv that they can use!
- brookst 2y ago
  > Older software gives users control over sorting and show data in a tabular format I'm old and tend to agree, but I suspect this is similar to "you used to have a knob on the TV that showed the channel it's on".
  - watwut 2y ago
    Not every change is for the better. You gotta admit that TVs used to be able to switch channels much faster then they do now. And analogue controls in cars are safer and better then touch screens for everything. A lot of change is for the better, but quite a lot is a regression.
    - brookst 2y ago
      "Better" and "regression" are purely subjective. I have access to around 1000 "channels", if you include live broadcasts and network-like apps. How exactly were old TVs better at helping navigate that?
      - kedean 2y ago
        Modern TV interfaces are way better at navigating 1000 channels, but whether or not having 1000 channels available through one TV interface is highly debatable. It's also not a given that the current way most TVs use is anywhere close to the optimal one (especially when you have multiple devices that all have to work together because the cable provider insists on their own box, made even worse when a helpful family member installs a sound system with its own dedicated remote).
      - PaulHoule 2y ago
        For one thing, the clicker seems to work instantly for analog TV because it will sync up on the next frame, which is 0.03 sec which is less than the 0.2 sec it takes the human mind to perceive two events as two different events. With digital broadcast TV and cable whenever you switch to a different carrier there is a long delay (at least 0.5 sec) for the radio and the rest of the processing train to sync up. With streaming you have to do multiple network round trips to establish a stream. Either way you don't have the immediacy that old TVs had. The question of UI in modern TV is interesting. 15 years ago the 500 channel problem looked difficult, my impression was that Comcast Xfinity (2010) was the first really good STB interface for the digital age. I have a NVIDIA Shield which has an Android TV interface that convincingly makes FAST services like Pluto, Plex and Tubi look like linear TV on an STB. What you find though is that going "back" from one of those channels can put you, disorientingly, in the app for those channels, and also that you can usually navigate better if you start out with the FAST app (and have a more consistent experience watching FAST on a computer, tablet or XBOX) Except for those things which, for some reason, are easy to find in Android TV but hard in the app.
grugagag 2y ago
Deterministic software puts the user in control of the product. Nondeterministic algos put the products in control of the user. Naturally companies want the latter and under guises of the ‘now better’ give the user worse and charge them more. A new generation isn’t even aware they’re being fleeced because they don’t have anything to compare with. And the frog boils slowly…
- knowaveragejoe 2y ago
  This entire thread reads like multiple people circling around product opportunities. There are users out there who want control and will pay for something no-frills. You might not get big VC money to build this, but you could build this.
  - robocat 2y ago
    Consumers want lots of things but they don't want to pay. They pay indirectly via advertising.
    - underlipton 2y ago
      Consumers can't pay. Part of the grift has been the concentration of capital in the hands of the highest wealth-holders, who all seem to have the same idea as to where to put their money (hence, uncomfortably, the bidding up of tech compensation to where it is now). So, no, you're not going to be able to Adobe/Autodesk-style price gouge. However, if you show customers the value proposition (generally some aspect of longevity or portability that prevents expensive upgrades or lock-in), they'll pay when they can. And until sanity returns to the economy, partnering with a credit facility of some sort might be wise (for you, not the customer).
      - knowaveragejoe 2y ago
        Okay, no, we don't have to go down this nobody-can-afford-anything rabbit hole. There are people out there that will pay. The issue is not that there isn't willing consumers to pay for it, it's that you're undiscoverable until word-of-mouth builds around your product among people(like those in this very thread) know and talk about your product going against the grain.
Ekaros 2y ago
Reminds of Windows and search. I am not anymore even sure if there is some nice dialog where I could put some pattern and folder or list of folder and have it run through it for me...
- zeagle 2y ago
  It's just enshitification. It's pretty funny when I search for putty and get the help doc, or my email client and get some windows setting option. I switched to powertoys search to get around it but wonder if anyone responsible for maintaining this feature actually uses it.
- ncpa-cpl 2y ago
  > nice dialog where I could put some pattern and folder or list of folder and have it run through it for me Everything from Voidtools is a dialog window, accepts patterns and is really fast. https://www.voidtools.com/ https://www.voidtools.com/
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    And Stardock's Start11 adds EveryThing's search to your start menu.

wolpoli 2y ago

> A lot of classic software essentially worked more like a database. In the last 10-15 years it's all moving to an algorithm. You just described what I missed about the older software. Older software gives users control over sorting and show data in a tabular format. Modern software sorts data with an algorithm, with ads mixed in, and shows data in a card format, making it a lot less usable.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
Exactly. My related observation: half of the SaaS products I see would be more useful and ergonomic for the user if they were implemented as an Excel sheet. (I actually worked for one of such "better off as an .xls file" startup in the past, and its main competitor was an incumbent that sold the same stuff as an Excel extension. Trying to replace that with a React app is not a worthwhile use of life.) Algorithms are fine. I'll happily apply the most advanced ones I can get. The problem is with who applies them to what - as you and GP said, it's about user control - or, currently, lack of.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  Excel is great until it you need to do something that takes up more space than a single screen. Then it isn't. Sending sqlite databases to the users which they can interact with using both sql and a viewer is where it's at.
  - jkaplowitz 2y ago
    I wonder if being a more powerful backing data store for Excel is one of the remaining reasonable uses for Microsoft Access, at least for users of the Windows desktop version of Office? Access is still included in many editions of that (although not on Mac or web or mobile). Officially it’s even still supported and not deprecated, although of course it’s very much not emphasized by MS any more. Other options might be SQL Server Express or SQL Server Express LocalDB, the latter of which seems conceptually very much like SQLite within the MS ecosystem, and both of which are usable for production purposes at no cost within the technical limitations that differentiate them from paid editions.
- samarthr1 2y ago
  The SaaS I am now working for is a react app + some fancy intelligence. We are not front-end people, so the app is built with the expectation that people will be doing their filtering, searching and using the intelligence we provide, but in their home turf (excel). Our app also lets users "track" certain events, and we do not use push notifications, rather we respect our user's attention and email them a short summary, and link to a csv that they can use!
brookst 2y ago
> Older software gives users control over sorting and show data in a tabular format I'm old and tend to agree, but I suspect this is similar to "you used to have a knob on the TV that showed the channel it's on".
- watwut 2y ago
  Not every change is for the better. You gotta admit that TVs used to be able to switch channels much faster then they do now. And analogue controls in cars are safer and better then touch screens for everything. A lot of change is for the better, but quite a lot is a regression.
  - brookst 2y ago
    "Better" and "regression" are purely subjective. I have access to around 1000 "channels", if you include live broadcasts and network-like apps. How exactly were old TVs better at helping navigate that?
    - kedean 2y ago
      Modern TV interfaces are way better at navigating 1000 channels, but whether or not having 1000 channels available through one TV interface is highly debatable. It's also not a given that the current way most TVs use is anywhere close to the optimal one (especially when you have multiple devices that all have to work together because the cable provider insists on their own box, made even worse when a helpful family member installs a sound system with its own dedicated remote).
    - PaulHoule 2y ago
      For one thing, the clicker seems to work instantly for analog TV because it will sync up on the next frame, which is 0.03 sec which is less than the 0.2 sec it takes the human mind to perceive two events as two different events. With digital broadcast TV and cable whenever you switch to a different carrier there is a long delay (at least 0.5 sec) for the radio and the rest of the processing train to sync up. With streaming you have to do multiple network round trips to establish a stream. Either way you don't have the immediacy that old TVs had. The question of UI in modern TV is interesting. 15 years ago the 500 channel problem looked difficult, my impression was that Comcast Xfinity (2010) was the first really good STB interface for the digital age. I have a NVIDIA Shield which has an Android TV interface that convincingly makes FAST services like Pluto, Plex and Tubi look like linear TV on an STB. What you find though is that going "back" from one of those channels can put you, disorientingly, in the app for those channels, and also that you can usually navigate better if you start out with the FAST app (and have a more consistent experience watching FAST on a computer, tablet or XBOX) Except for those things which, for some reason, are easy to find in Android TV but hard in the app.

grugagag 2y ago

Deterministic software puts the user in control of the product. Nondeterministic algos put the products in control of the user. Naturally companies want the latter and under guises of the ‘now better’ give the user worse and charge them more. A new generation isn’t even aware they’re being fleeced because they don’t have anything to compare with. And the frog boils slowly…

knowaveragejoe 2y ago
This entire thread reads like multiple people circling around product opportunities. There are users out there who want control and will pay for something no-frills. You might not get big VC money to build this, but you could build this.
- robocat 2y ago
  Consumers want lots of things but they don't want to pay. They pay indirectly via advertising.
  - underlipton 2y ago
    Consumers can't pay. Part of the grift has been the concentration of capital in the hands of the highest wealth-holders, who all seem to have the same idea as to where to put their money (hence, uncomfortably, the bidding up of tech compensation to where it is now). So, no, you're not going to be able to Adobe/Autodesk-style price gouge. However, if you show customers the value proposition (generally some aspect of longevity or portability that prevents expensive upgrades or lock-in), they'll pay when they can. And until sanity returns to the economy, partnering with a credit facility of some sort might be wise (for you, not the customer).
    - knowaveragejoe 2y ago
      Okay, no, we don't have to go down this nobody-can-afford-anything rabbit hole. There are people out there that will pay. The issue is not that there isn't willing consumers to pay for it, it's that you're undiscoverable until word-of-mouth builds around your product among people(like those in this very thread) know and talk about your product going against the grain.

Ekaros 2y ago

Reminds of Windows and search. I am not anymore even sure if there is some nice dialog where I could put some pattern and folder or list of folder and have it run through it for me...

zeagle 2y ago
It's just enshitification. It's pretty funny when I search for putty and get the help doc, or my email client and get some windows setting option. I switched to powertoys search to get around it but wonder if anyone responsible for maintaining this feature actually uses it.
ncpa-cpl 2y ago
> nice dialog where I could put some pattern and folder or list of folder and have it run through it for me Everything from Voidtools is a dialog window, accepts patterns and is really fast. https://www.voidtools.com/ https://www.voidtools.com/
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  And Stardock's Start11 adds EveryThing's search to your start menu.