6 ms·

> Hezbollah just two months ago shot a rocket into a football field, killing 12 Israeli children. This is far from confirmed and is effectively just an opinion

by tmnvix 2y ago

> Hezbollah just two months ago shot a rocket into a football field, killing 12 Israeli children. This is far from confirmed and is effectively just an opinion (not that children were killed, but that Hezbollah was responsible).

dotancohen 2y ago
What are you talking about? It is well established that Hezbollah shot the missile. They bragged about it in their Telegram channels (I just happened to be reading the Gaza Now channel when they reposted it, I don't read the Hezbollah channels), and the direction and the debris are conclusive. The only reason to sow doubt is to protect these monsters. I think that you should really revaluate your reasons for protecting Hezbollah's reputation. Even the Lebanese hate them and want them out of their country.
- test098 2y ago
  > It is well established that Hezbollah shot the missile. They bragged about it in their Telegram channels > I don't read the Hezbollah channels ok... [1] > The only reason to sow doubt is to protect these monsters. i personally dispute misinformation because, well, it's misinformation and it's used by state actors to escalate violence. [2] --- [1] "Hezbollah, the most powerful paramilitary and political force in Lebanon, was quick to say it was not behind the attack, a rare denial from a group that normally claims every attack launched." [2] "With Israel vowing retaliation for what was the highest civilian death toll in Israel-held territory since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on southern Israel, diplomats rushed to prevent an escalation that could spiral into an all-out war after months of exchanges between Israel and Hezbollah over the Lebanese-Israeli border." source: https://apnews.com/article/israel-golan-heights-soccer-rocket-hezbollah-explained-97d4377713a209cf130b7b0f3476e1c4 https://apnews.com/article/israel-golan-heights-soccer-rocke...
  - dotancohen 2y ago
    > > It is well established that Hezbollah shot the missile. They bragged about it in their Telegram channels > > I don't read the Hezbollah channels I read the Gaza channels. They republish things from other channels. Right now I'm subscribed only to Gaza Now as that seems to be the source of much information that the other channels republish, as much news being made is being made in Gaza. > i personally dispute misinformation because, well, it's misinformation and it's used by state actors to escalate violence. The idea that this missile was not from Hezbollah is misinformation. They claimed it then retracted it. People there state that it came from Lebanon, apparently backed up by the direction of the debris and video. And the Druze - who famously abhor conflict - state that it came from Lebanon and they petitioned the Israeli government not to retaliate. If there were any doubt, the Druze themselves would be saying it.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- tmnvix 2y ago
  Israel claims it was Hezbollah, while Hezbollah denies they were responsible. To date, there has been no independent verification of the weapon's remains. At this point it is very much a case of "he said, she said". On that basis I can only ask, why would Hezbollah deliberately target the Druze civilian population? You seem to imply that they did so deliberately (i.e. deliberately targeted these civilians). That, in my opinion is simply your opinion and not based on verifiable fact. There is not even a likely motivation for such an act. To be clear, I am fully willing to accept - given the available evidence - that Hezbollah may have made a miscalculation and are responsible for the deaths of these children. Deliberately though? Very, very doubtful.
  - dotancohen 2y ago
    They claim - and I believe them - that they were targeting a military base further up the mountain. They claimed a direct hit on the base, then it was apparent that the missile fell in Majdal Shams (a city that I've been to many times, as recently as 2022), and they retracted their claims of hitting the army base.
    - tmnvix 2y ago
      Again, it is still not established as a fact that whatever hit the football field and killed those children came from Hezbollah (Personally, I do believe this is possible. I do not believe that this could have been deliberate). However, I do owe you an apology. In an earlier comment I claimed that you had implied that Hezbollah was deliberately targeting civilians in this latest conflict and after rereading it seems you haven't made this claim. Sorry.
      - dotancohen 2y ago
        Do you think that missile came thousands of kilometers away from Ukraine? Do you think it was a Houthi missile? We've seen misfires of Iron Dome rockets (I've literally been watching Iron Dome rockets firing from my back yard for years) and they look nothing like the explosion seen by this rocket - or the damage. And yes, we did have a civilian killed by a misfired Iron Dome, and immediately said so. What level of proof are you looking for? Hezbollah even claimed responsibility then retracted it when it was found to have hit a non-military target.
- rysertio 2y ago
  Just because my enemy committed war crimes doesn't mean I get a free pass to commit war crimes
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
edanm 2y ago
That's a ridiculous statement and complete misinformation. I'll just quote Wikipedia here: > Israel blamed Hezbollah for carrying out the attack with an Iranian-made Falaq-1 rocket equipped with a 53-kilogram warhead.[7][9] Hezbollah said it had targeted a nearby military base and that the football pitch was hit by an errant Israeli Iron Dome air defence projectile. Western sources dismissed this claim, citing expert opinion that the rocket had been fired by Hezbollah or another militant group in Lebanon.[9][10][11][4][12] Even if Hezbollah is correct that it was an errant Iron Dome projectile (which as you can see, is widely disputed), that would still be Hezbollah's fault, because the whole reason Iron Dome rockets need to be fired is because of Hezbollah's attacks on Israel. What level of convincing do you think we need to take this from "unconfirmed" and "just an opinion" to confirmed? --- Wikipedia aside, Hezbollah has fired thousands, maybe tens of thousands of rockets at Israel over the last year, causing ~80k people to have to flee their homes, destroying parts of cities, and causing massive fires. They've been targeting civilians non-stop for almost a year. Given this massive prior, I think on balance it is far more likely that this strike was another case of these thousands of other cases, and the reason they're denying it is because this one specifically wasn't intercepted and killed a lot of kids. You really think that that's not more likely? Hezbollah, a designated terrorist organization, shoots thousands of rockets, claims them all, including initially attacks 3km from that field, but then when it turns out it killed a bunch of kids, denies responsibility. And you think taking their word for it is the more likely correct thing here?
- tmnvix 2y ago
  > That's a ridiculous statement and complete misinformation. You appear to be making the argument that my claim that this has not been conclusively confirmed is wrong because of what is likely/unlikely. That is fallacious and frankly comes across as disingenuous. If you are going to make the strong claim you need to back it up with real evidence or you risk being accused of promoting misinformation for the purposes of justifying further death and suffering. To the best of my knowledge the source of the rocket has not been confirmed. Are you claiming that it has (IDF or US repetition of IDF claims not withstanding)? > What level of convincing do you think we need to take this from "unconfirmed" and "just an opinion" to confirmed? Independent verification of the debris would settle this conclusively. Hasn't happened. Why not? Especially given that it was used to justify an escalation. Without verifiable evidence to support it that just looks like cynical use of these children's deaths to inflict more suffering for political purposes.

by tmnvix 2y ago

dotancohen 2y ago

What are you talking about? It is well established that Hezbollah shot the missile. They bragged about it in their Telegram channels (I just happened to be reading the Gaza Now channel when they reposted it, I don't read the Hezbollah channels), and the direction and the debris are conclusive. The only reason to sow doubt is to protect these monsters. I think that you should really revaluate your reasons for protecting Hezbollah's reputation. Even the Lebanese hate them and want them out of their country.

test098 2y ago
> It is well established that Hezbollah shot the missile. They bragged about it in their Telegram channels > I don't read the Hezbollah channels ok... [1] > The only reason to sow doubt is to protect these monsters. i personally dispute misinformation because, well, it's misinformation and it's used by state actors to escalate violence. [2] --- [1] "Hezbollah, the most powerful paramilitary and political force in Lebanon, was quick to say it was not behind the attack, a rare denial from a group that normally claims every attack launched." [2] "With Israel vowing retaliation for what was the highest civilian death toll in Israel-held territory since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on southern Israel, diplomats rushed to prevent an escalation that could spiral into an all-out war after months of exchanges between Israel and Hezbollah over the Lebanese-Israeli border." source: https://apnews.com/article/israel-golan-heights-soccer-rocket-hezbollah-explained-97d4377713a209cf130b7b0f3476e1c4 https://apnews.com/article/israel-golan-heights-soccer-rocke...
- dotancohen 2y ago
  > > It is well established that Hezbollah shot the missile. They bragged about it in their Telegram channels > > I don't read the Hezbollah channels I read the Gaza channels. They republish things from other channels. Right now I'm subscribed only to Gaza Now as that seems to be the source of much information that the other channels republish, as much news being made is being made in Gaza. > i personally dispute misinformation because, well, it's misinformation and it's used by state actors to escalate violence. The idea that this missile was not from Hezbollah is misinformation. They claimed it then retracted it. People there state that it came from Lebanon, apparently backed up by the direction of the debris and video. And the Druze - who famously abhor conflict - state that it came from Lebanon and they petitioned the Israeli government not to retaliate. If there were any doubt, the Druze themselves would be saying it.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
tmnvix 2y ago
Israel claims it was Hezbollah, while Hezbollah denies they were responsible. To date, there has been no independent verification of the weapon's remains. At this point it is very much a case of "he said, she said". On that basis I can only ask, why would Hezbollah deliberately target the Druze civilian population? You seem to imply that they did so deliberately (i.e. deliberately targeted these civilians). That, in my opinion is simply your opinion and not based on verifiable fact. There is not even a likely motivation for such an act. To be clear, I am fully willing to accept - given the available evidence - that Hezbollah may have made a miscalculation and are responsible for the deaths of these children. Deliberately though? Very, very doubtful.
- dotancohen 2y ago
  They claim - and I believe them - that they were targeting a military base further up the mountain. They claimed a direct hit on the base, then it was apparent that the missile fell in Majdal Shams (a city that I've been to many times, as recently as 2022), and they retracted their claims of hitting the army base.
  - tmnvix 2y ago
    Again, it is still not established as a fact that whatever hit the football field and killed those children came from Hezbollah (Personally, I do believe this is possible. I do not believe that this could have been deliberate). However, I do owe you an apology. In an earlier comment I claimed that you had implied that Hezbollah was deliberately targeting civilians in this latest conflict and after rereading it seems you haven't made this claim. Sorry.
    - dotancohen 2y ago
      Do you think that missile came thousands of kilometers away from Ukraine? Do you think it was a Houthi missile? We've seen misfires of Iron Dome rockets (I've literally been watching Iron Dome rockets firing from my back yard for years) and they look nothing like the explosion seen by this rocket - or the damage. And yes, we did have a civilian killed by a misfired Iron Dome, and immediately said so. What level of proof are you looking for? Hezbollah even claimed responsibility then retracted it when it was found to have hit a non-military target.
rysertio 2y ago
Just because my enemy committed war crimes doesn't mean I get a free pass to commit war crimes

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

edanm 2y ago

That's a ridiculous statement and complete misinformation. I'll just quote Wikipedia here: > Israel blamed Hezbollah for carrying out the attack with an Iranian-made Falaq-1 rocket equipped with a 53-kilogram warhead.[7][9] Hezbollah said it had targeted a nearby military base and that the football pitch was hit by an errant Israeli Iron Dome air defence projectile. Western sources dismissed this claim, citing expert opinion that the rocket had been fired by Hezbollah or another militant group in Lebanon.[9][10][11][4][12] Even if Hezbollah is correct that it was an errant Iron Dome projectile (which as you can see, is widely disputed), that would still be Hezbollah's fault, because the whole reason Iron Dome rockets need to be fired is because of Hezbollah's attacks on Israel. What level of convincing do you think we need to take this from "unconfirmed" and "just an opinion" to confirmed? --- Wikipedia aside, Hezbollah has fired thousands, maybe tens of thousands of rockets at Israel over the last year, causing ~80k people to have to flee their homes, destroying parts of cities, and causing massive fires. They've been targeting civilians non-stop for almost a year. Given this massive prior, I think on balance it is far more likely that this strike was another case of these thousands of other cases, and the reason they're denying it is because this one specifically wasn't intercepted and killed a lot of kids. You really think that that's not more likely? Hezbollah, a designated terrorist organization, shoots thousands of rockets, claims them all, including initially attacks 3km from that field, but then when it turns out it killed a bunch of kids, denies responsibility. And you think taking their word for it is the more likely correct thing here?

tmnvix 2y ago
> That's a ridiculous statement and complete misinformation. You appear to be making the argument that my claim that this has not been conclusively confirmed is wrong because of what is likely/unlikely. That is fallacious and frankly comes across as disingenuous. If you are going to make the strong claim you need to back it up with real evidence or you risk being accused of promoting misinformation for the purposes of justifying further death and suffering. To the best of my knowledge the source of the rocket has not been confirmed. Are you claiming that it has (IDF or US repetition of IDF claims not withstanding)? > What level of convincing do you think we need to take this from "unconfirmed" and "just an opinion" to confirmed? Independent verification of the debris would settle this conclusively. Hasn't happened. Why not? Especially given that it was used to justify an escalation. Without verifiable evidence to support it that just looks like cynical use of these children's deaths to inflict more suffering for political purposes.