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I think Snowden was bang on when in 2013 he warned us of a last chance to fight for some basic digital privacy rights. I think there was a cultural window there

I think Snowden was bang on when in 2013 he warned us of a last chance to fight for some basic digital privacy rights. I think there was a cultural window there which has now closed.

orthecreedence 2y ago
Snowden pointed and everyone looked at his finger. It was a huge shame, but a cultural sign that the US is descending into a surveillance hell hole and people are ok with that. As someone who was (and still is) vehemently against PRISM and NSLs and all that, it was hard to come to terms with. I'm going to keep building things that circumvent the "empire" and hope people start caring eventually.
- Clubber 2y ago
  >and people are ok with that. All the propagandists said he was a Russian asset, as if even if that were true, it somehow negated the fact that we were now living under a surveillance state. >Snowden pointed and everyone looked at his finger. This is a great way of putting it.
  - lesuorac 2y ago
    > it somehow negated the fact that we were now living under a surveillance state. There's long been surveillance programs and also numerous laws outlining the responsibilities of telecom provides to enable wire tapping. There's really nothing new from Snowden besides the names of a bunch of people to go kill cause they're spies. FISA [1] isn't a private law either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite... Note: 2006 (Klien) predates 2013 (Snowden) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act_of_1978_Amendments_Act_of_2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla...
    - Clubber 2y ago
      >There's really nothing new from Snowden besides the names of a bunch of people to go kill cause they're spies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_global_surveillance_disclosures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_global_surveillance_disc...
      - lesuorac 2y ago
        You are dense. Imagine a government authorizes 10B for a bridge and then in 5 years a bridge shows up. Now instead, imagine in 1978 [1] a government authorizes "United States federal law that establishes procedures for the surveillance and collection of foreign intelligence on domestic soil" and in 2008 [2] amends it to not be a big deal if they're foreign or not and then 5 years later it turns out they're doing just that. These bills are not secret. Were not secret. Have never been secret. It's not my fault you didn't read them but it doesn't make Snowden novel. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act_of_1978_Amendments_Act_of_2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla...
        Clubber 2y ago
        >You are dense. Well, maybe you're one of those propagandists. If you can't attack the idea, attack the person, right? Hand waves, nothing new to see here, carry on. The bills aren't what were exposed, it was more the techniques and scope. Like PRISM and XKeyScore and circumventing laws by sharing intelligence on US citizens with allies who aren't restricted by US laws. Spying on allied governments, etc. You know, that stuff. You should really click on the link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_global_surveillance_disclosures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_global_surveillance_disc...
        dialup_sounds 2y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_SHAMROCK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_SHAMROCK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_and_Mitchell_defection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_and_Mitchell_defection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON Et cetera. These aren't new issues. The obsession with Snowden as a messianic figure is unhelpful in contextualizing the information.
- digging 2y ago
  > and people are ok with that I've seen no evidence of this. People mostly either don't understand it for feel powerless against it.
  - immibis 2y ago
    I've seen no evidence people aren't ok with that. Most people around me didn't care about the Snowden revelations. It was only tech people who tightened up security.
    - orthecreedence 2y ago
      This is my experience as well. I talked to a LOT of people after the Snowden debacle (techies and otherwise) and the general attitude was "so what? they aren't using the information for anything bad!" or "I have nothing to hide!" (in this thread, for instance: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41594775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41594775) I think people don't really understand what an enormous sleeping dragon the entire thing is.
      - digging 2y ago
        > I think people don't really understand what an enormous sleeping dragon the entire thing is. Isn't that what I said? Mostly we're debating semantics. My deeper point is that it's counterproductive and borderline misanthropic to argue "People just don't care about evil being done!" whereas the argument that "People seriously have no idea yet what they're 'agreeing' to" opens the door to actual solutions, for one inclined to work on them.
        neom 2y ago
        But what is the "enormous sleeping dragon" my mom, dad, little sister, and teenage cousins need to understand? - and, even once it's patently clear, does it with certainly not result in another "...and???"
  - dylan604 2y ago
- EGreg 2y ago
  Over ten years ago I wrote about the root of the problem: https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169 https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169 And here is a libertarian solution: https://qbix.com/blog/2019/03/08/how-qbix-platform-can-change-the-world/ https://qbix.com/blog/2019/03/08/how-qbix-platform-can-chang...

I think Snowden was bang on when in 2013 he warned us of a last chance to fight for some basic digital privacy rights. I think there was a cultural window there which has now closed.

orthecreedence 2y ago

Snowden pointed and everyone looked at his finger. It was a huge shame, but a cultural sign that the US is descending into a surveillance hell hole and people are ok with that. As someone who was (and still is) vehemently against PRISM and NSLs and all that, it was hard to come to terms with. I'm going to keep building things that circumvent the "empire" and hope people start caring eventually.

Clubber 2y ago
>and people are ok with that. All the propagandists said he was a Russian asset, as if even if that were true, it somehow negated the fact that we were now living under a surveillance state. >Snowden pointed and everyone looked at his finger. This is a great way of putting it.
- lesuorac 2y ago
  > it somehow negated the fact that we were now living under a surveillance state. There's long been surveillance programs and also numerous laws outlining the responsibilities of telecom provides to enable wire tapping. There's really nothing new from Snowden besides the names of a bunch of people to go kill cause they're spies. FISA [1] isn't a private law either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite... Note: 2006 (Klien) predates 2013 (Snowden) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act_of_1978_Amendments_Act_of_2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla...
  - Clubber 2y ago
    >There's really nothing new from Snowden besides the names of a bunch of people to go kill cause they're spies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_global_surveillance_disclosures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_global_surveillance_disc...
    - lesuorac 2y ago
      You are dense. Imagine a government authorizes 10B for a bridge and then in 5 years a bridge shows up. Now instead, imagine in 1978 [1] a government authorizes "United States federal law that establishes procedures for the surveillance and collection of foreign intelligence on domestic soil" and in 2008 [2] amends it to not be a big deal if they're foreign or not and then 5 years later it turns out they're doing just that. These bills are not secret. Were not secret. Have never been secret. It's not my fault you didn't read them but it doesn't make Snowden novel. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act_of_1978_Amendments_Act_of_2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveilla...
      - Clubber 2y ago
        >You are dense. Well, maybe you're one of those propagandists. If you can't attack the idea, attack the person, right? Hand waves, nothing new to see here, carry on. The bills aren't what were exposed, it was more the techniques and scope. Like PRISM and XKeyScore and circumventing laws by sharing intelligence on US citizens with allies who aren't restricted by US laws. Spying on allied governments, etc. You know, that stuff. You should really click on the link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_global_surveillance_disclosures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_global_surveillance_disc...
        dialup_sounds 2y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_SHAMROCK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_SHAMROCK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_and_Mitchell_defection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_and_Mitchell_defection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON Et cetera. These aren't new issues. The obsession with Snowden as a messianic figure is unhelpful in contextualizing the information.
digging 2y ago
> and people are ok with that I've seen no evidence of this. People mostly either don't understand it for feel powerless against it.
- immibis 2y ago
  I've seen no evidence people aren't ok with that. Most people around me didn't care about the Snowden revelations. It was only tech people who tightened up security.
  - orthecreedence 2y ago
    This is my experience as well. I talked to a LOT of people after the Snowden debacle (techies and otherwise) and the general attitude was "so what? they aren't using the information for anything bad!" or "I have nothing to hide!" (in this thread, for instance: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41594775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41594775) I think people don't really understand what an enormous sleeping dragon the entire thing is.
    - digging 2y ago
      > I think people don't really understand what an enormous sleeping dragon the entire thing is. Isn't that what I said? Mostly we're debating semantics. My deeper point is that it's counterproductive and borderline misanthropic to argue "People just don't care about evil being done!" whereas the argument that "People seriously have no idea yet what they're 'agreeing' to" opens the door to actual solutions, for one inclined to work on them.
      - neom 2y ago
        But what is the "enormous sleeping dragon" my mom, dad, little sister, and teenage cousins need to understand? - and, even once it's patently clear, does it with certainly not result in another "...and???"
- dylan604 2y ago
EGreg 2y ago
Over ten years ago I wrote about the root of the problem: https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169 https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169 And here is a libertarian solution: https://qbix.com/blog/2019/03/08/how-qbix-platform-can-change-the-world/ https://qbix.com/blog/2019/03/08/how-qbix-platform-can-chang...