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> Russians didn’t start a war. That's industrial-grade gaslighting. A regime doesn't simply start an invasion. It's not even the first one in recent years, too

> Russians didn’t start a war. That's industrial-grade gaslighting. A regime doesn't simply start an invasion. It's not even the first one in recent years, too. Russia's regime decided to invade Ukraine in 2014, and make it a full blown military invasion in 2022. You can't weasel-word your way around that.

47282847 2y ago
How does that contradict what I said? You conflate Russian government and rulers (the „Russian regime“), and the population who happen to live or originate from there with no say in any of it („Russians“), all into one. That creates confusion and misunderstandings. You are making it appear as if it’s right and just to punish the population, and support their regime in isolating them from the world. Also, you may want to look at the definition of „gaslighting“, where you create another confusion by applying it to this context.
- mopsi 2y ago
  I think he mistook your "Russia didn't start the war" as an attempt to blame Ukraine, whereas you were trying do distance population from the government. Nevertheless, that's wrong. The population overwhelmingly supports the war: https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/3.png https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/3.png The support is surprisingly uniform across age groups and urban/rural divide: https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/4.png https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/4.png
  - grishka 2y ago
    > The population overwhelmingly supports the war Yeah right because when someone calls people and asks effectively "do you support the war or do you want to go to jail" you totally get data that is not skewed in any way whatsoever. Being openly against the war is literally illegal.
    - 47282847 2y ago
      Exactly. Even calling it one is. And even if it was true, that opinion would simply be an indicator of the success of government propaganda. (Lies and myths and skewed narratives, not to be confused with gaslighting.)
      - mopsi 2y ago
        Russians in Europe - where they have excellent access to free media and are under no such pressure - hold similar views, toned down due to public stigma. They refuse to condemn the war, blame it on Ukrainians, etc. A significant number of people refuse to answer the questions at all; this is something that Levada stresses does not happen with their surveys in Russia. Take Russians in Latvia, for example: https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/society/less-than-half-of-russians-in-latvia-condemn-russias-war-in-ukraine-survey.a464423/ https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/society/less-than-half-of... (2022) https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/society/13.07.2023-survey-27-of-latvian-russians-support-ukraine.a516349/ https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/society/13.07.2023-survey... (2023)
        47282847 2y ago
        Yes and now how do you get Russians in Russia to change their mind? By punishing and isolating them, or by inviting them over to talk to them? That was the original point regarding sanctions.
        mopsi 2y ago
        Vladimir Zolkin is an Ukrainian journalist who has recorded hundreds of hours of interviews with Russian POWs and published them on Youtube. He started in the first weeks of the war and is still going. By now he's probably interviewed over a thousand of them. These are long interviews, in depth, usually up to an hour or even more, including POWs' calls home and interviewing their relatives too if they agree. According to his own words, he has entirely given up trying to "change their mind". These are just completely brainwashed people, incapable of independent thought, apathetic like zombies, automatically repeating instilled thoughts as soon as certain keywords are hit. Change will only come when they are replaced by a new generation that is free of this programming. Until then, the best course of action for us is to build a tall wall between us and hope that they won't attempt to drive a tank through it. What you are pointing at is nothing new. Naive attempts to "build bridges" with people who see bridges only as an easy way of driving a tank over to us is how we got here in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandel_durch_Handel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandel_durch_Handel (German/EU policy towards Russia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_reset https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_reset (Obama-era attempts) Misguided attempts to build relations with countries run by criminal gangs have made no positive impact on them, but have poisoned us by opening up our politics, businesses, and other areas of life to their criminal networks.

47282847 2y ago

How does that contradict what I said? You conflate Russian government and rulers (the „Russian regime“), and the population who happen to live or originate from there with no say in any of it („Russians“), all into one. That creates confusion and misunderstandings. You are making it appear as if it’s right and just to punish the population, and support their regime in isolating them from the world. Also, you may want to look at the definition of „gaslighting“, where you create another confusion by applying it to this context.

mopsi 2y ago
I think he mistook your "Russia didn't start the war" as an attempt to blame Ukraine, whereas you were trying do distance population from the government. Nevertheless, that's wrong. The population overwhelmingly supports the war: https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/3.png https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/3.png The support is surprisingly uniform across age groups and urban/rural divide: https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/4.png https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/4.png
- grishka 2y ago
  > The population overwhelmingly supports the war Yeah right because when someone calls people and asks effectively "do you support the war or do you want to go to jail" you totally get data that is not skewed in any way whatsoever. Being openly against the war is literally illegal.
  - 47282847 2y ago
    Exactly. Even calling it one is. And even if it was true, that opinion would simply be an indicator of the success of government propaganda. (Lies and myths and skewed narratives, not to be confused with gaslighting.)
    - mopsi 2y ago
      Russians in Europe - where they have excellent access to free media and are under no such pressure - hold similar views, toned down due to public stigma. They refuse to condemn the war, blame it on Ukrainians, etc. A significant number of people refuse to answer the questions at all; this is something that Levada stresses does not happen with their surveys in Russia. Take Russians in Latvia, for example: https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/society/less-than-half-of-russians-in-latvia-condemn-russias-war-in-ukraine-survey.a464423/ https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/society/less-than-half-of... (2022) https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/society/13.07.2023-survey-27-of-latvian-russians-support-ukraine.a516349/ https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/society/13.07.2023-survey... (2023)
      - 47282847 2y ago
        Yes and now how do you get Russians in Russia to change their mind? By punishing and isolating them, or by inviting them over to talk to them? That was the original point regarding sanctions.
        mopsi 2y ago
        Vladimir Zolkin is an Ukrainian journalist who has recorded hundreds of hours of interviews with Russian POWs and published them on Youtube. He started in the first weeks of the war and is still going. By now he's probably interviewed over a thousand of them. These are long interviews, in depth, usually up to an hour or even more, including POWs' calls home and interviewing their relatives too if they agree. According to his own words, he has entirely given up trying to "change their mind". These are just completely brainwashed people, incapable of independent thought, apathetic like zombies, automatically repeating instilled thoughts as soon as certain keywords are hit. Change will only come when they are replaced by a new generation that is free of this programming. Until then, the best course of action for us is to build a tall wall between us and hope that they won't attempt to drive a tank through it. What you are pointing at is nothing new. Naive attempts to "build bridges" with people who see bridges only as an easy way of driving a tank over to us is how we got here in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandel_durch_Handel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandel_durch_Handel (German/EU policy towards Russia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_reset https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_reset (Obama-era attempts) Misguided attempts to build relations with countries run by criminal gangs have made no positive impact on them, but have poisoned us by opening up our politics, businesses, and other areas of life to their criminal networks.