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Nebula: Brave's differentially private system for privacy-preserving analytics

_lvbh 2y ago
I really don’t like how both Brave and Firefox among others are also moving towards advertisement and analytics. I don’t care about whether it’s privacy preserving; don’t send any requests I did not approve. I have OpenSnitch installed and manually whitelist connections based on domain name. It gets annoying but I think it’s worth it. Also, there are enough Firefox forks such that most of what Mozilla does won’t really affect me. Librewolf is my favorite thus far.
- deleted 2y ago
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- basch 2y ago
  analytics aka telemetry in this case are for the design of the product itself no? if they can preserve privacy, you dont want them to be able to see how people use their software?
- BrendanEich 2y ago
  This isn't ads-related, our private ads that pay users >= what we get are opt-in. This is about finding out what's working vs. not in the toolbar, sidebar, and other prime user interface surface area of Brave. If you don't trust the anonymity tech, I get it, and you can turn it off. But the days of us flying blind are long gone. I am also in favor of hearing from lead users directly, so please reach out any time: x.com/brendaneich. Then I can make a case, even if we don't have anonymous cohort of size just one lead user. Sometimes one is enough ;-). Thanks.
infogulch 2y ago
Describing it as "Differential Privacy" reminds me of Divvi Up from ISRG, the organization behind Lets Encrypt. https://divviup.org/ https://divviup.org/ There was a Show HN about Divvi Up about a month ago, but it didn't get any comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41141073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41141073 Anyone know how these compare?
- skaul 2y ago
  (Disclaimer: I lead privacy at Brave) Mozilla uses the core protocol for Divvi Up for its privacy-preserving advertising. Brave recently wrote about why we disagree with the design of that system: https://brave.com/blog/mozilla-ppa/ https://brave.com/blog/mozilla-ppa/. The core difference is that Mozilla's system is a lot more complicated and expensive to operate, and it needs that complexity because they're trying to work with the existing third-party based advertising ecosystem and its enormous financial incentive for ad fraud. Brave's DP system Nebula is not ads-related and is only used for product analytics, so it's a lot simpler while still preserving user privacy because it's not operating under the same constraints.
  - infogulch 2y ago
    Thanks for your response, and the additional context! I wasn't familiar with the current use of Divvi Up for privacy preserving advertising. Honestly, my first impression was that it would be a good system for product analytics. It makes sense why Divvi Up is expensive in the context of advertising, but I suspect it would be more reasonable for analytics. K-anonymity seems to have weaker privacy guarantees compared to the design of Divvi Up.
LinAGKar 2y ago
Not another Nebula. We already have the streaming service and the overlay network.
- BrendanEich 2y ago
  Outgrowth of STAR and STAR++, sorry. Can prefix "Brave" or otherwise limit context. All the good names are taken!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

I really don’t like how both Brave and Firefox among others are also moving towards advertisement and analytics. I don’t care about whether it’s privacy preserving; don’t send any requests I did not approve. I have OpenSnitch installed and manually whitelist connections based on domain name. It gets annoying but I think it’s worth it. Also, there are enough Firefox forks such that most of what Mozilla does won’t really affect me. Librewolf is my favorite thus far.

deleted 2y ago
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basch 2y ago
analytics aka telemetry in this case are for the design of the product itself no? if they can preserve privacy, you dont want them to be able to see how people use their software?
BrendanEich 2y ago
This isn't ads-related, our private ads that pay users >= what we get are opt-in. This is about finding out what's working vs. not in the toolbar, sidebar, and other prime user interface surface area of Brave. If you don't trust the anonymity tech, I get it, and you can turn it off. But the days of us flying blind are long gone. I am also in favor of hearing from lead users directly, so please reach out any time: x.com/brendaneich. Then I can make a case, even if we don't have anonymous cohort of size just one lead user. Sometimes one is enough ;-). Thanks.

infogulch 2y ago

Describing it as "Differential Privacy" reminds me of Divvi Up from ISRG, the organization behind Lets Encrypt. https://divviup.org/ https://divviup.org/ There was a Show HN about Divvi Up about a month ago, but it didn't get any comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41141073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41141073 Anyone know how these compare?

skaul 2y ago
(Disclaimer: I lead privacy at Brave) Mozilla uses the core protocol for Divvi Up for its privacy-preserving advertising. Brave recently wrote about why we disagree with the design of that system: https://brave.com/blog/mozilla-ppa/ https://brave.com/blog/mozilla-ppa/. The core difference is that Mozilla's system is a lot more complicated and expensive to operate, and it needs that complexity because they're trying to work with the existing third-party based advertising ecosystem and its enormous financial incentive for ad fraud. Brave's DP system Nebula is not ads-related and is only used for product analytics, so it's a lot simpler while still preserving user privacy because it's not operating under the same constraints.
- infogulch 2y ago
  Thanks for your response, and the additional context! I wasn't familiar with the current use of Divvi Up for privacy preserving advertising. Honestly, my first impression was that it would be a good system for product analytics. It makes sense why Divvi Up is expensive in the context of advertising, but I suspect it would be more reasonable for analytics. K-anonymity seems to have weaker privacy guarantees compared to the design of Divvi Up.

LinAGKar 2y ago

Not another Nebula. We already have the streaming service and the overlay network.

BrendanEich 2y ago
Outgrowth of STAR and STAR++, sorry. Can prefix "Brave" or otherwise limit context. All the good names are taken!

deleted 2y ago

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