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That’s a lot of words to argue agent the right for humans to self-determine their own governance and fate. Sincerely, I see no compelling argument that can be m

That’s a lot of words to argue agent the right for humans to self-determine their own governance and fate. Sincerely, I see no compelling argument that can be made in support of the restrictions Iran places upon its citizens. Please make one, with specifics, if you’re interested in discussing it.

gryzzly 2y ago
The fanatics in the gov are kept through aliance with other similar kleptocrats like Putin and Kims, has nothing to do with self determination
aniviacat 2y ago
If you truly believe that people who do not follow the laws of your religion will go to eternal hell, it does make a lot of sense, and really is completely morally sound, to push others into following the laws using any means necessary. I'm not religious myself. But in my country, if someone is actively suicidal (say they are standing on top of a building, planning to jump) they are (forcefully) stopped. I think that's a good thing. Now, of I was religious, I would believe that sinning (and therefore going to hell) would be way way way worse to do to oneself, even when compared to suicide. So just like I agree with forcefully preventing someone from following their will to commit suicide, I would probably agree with forcefully preventing people from sinning. If you are religious (and believe that sinning = hell), these laws make a lot of sense. Perhaps they should be even harsher.
- noduerme 2y ago
  There are several flaws in your reasoning. Firstly, you conflate your personal feelings with the rule of law. You may personally agree or disagree with preventing people from committing suicide, or violating religious norms, but that should be completely separate from whether you think the government should enforce your personal belief on people who believe otherwise. In a democracy, the government is not there to enforce your beliefs, it is there to prevent other people's beliefs from overriding your right to have your own. [edit: This is also an aspect of democracy that is not well understood in countries with a history of authoritarian or majoritarian rule. Democracies are an engine of creating higher efficiency and flourishing because they tend to protect minority views and are thus open to constant change and debate, which in turn are the drivers of economic growth. In authoritarian minds, change and debate are viewed as hindrances or dangers to the status quo; thus such societies stagnate. I'm practically explaining how Lebanon can't generate a home-made pager whilst a similarly sized country next door and carved up from the Ottoman empire at the same time... which prizes individuality and debate... can, well... nevermind] Secondly, you make a false assumption that just because a society agrees with you on one thing, you must agree with it on everything else. It would be perfectly rational to be against both the death penalty and against abortion, yet many people are for one and against the other. You make a case that if you lived in a society where the morality pointed a certain way, it would be natural for yourself just to go along without questioning its hypocrisy. That is, quite literally, you are making a case for not thinking for yourself as an individual or seeing anything wrong with the contradictions of whatever society you live in. It is our duty as human beings to point out the contradictions and hypocrisy in ourselves and our societies, to improve them. You are making the most retrograde, anti-liberal case possible by saying you would not question the values you were surrounded by.
  - yawboakye 2y ago
    there are graver flaws in your analysis. his so-called personal beliefs are shared and deliberately engendered through education. one may say, i think suicide should be prevented at all cost. but when they do so they’re not expressing a personal opinion but rather the result of their education and training. and education is conducted with the law in mind. ‘personal opinion’ from an adult who has been subjected to education is usually a misnomer. they’re not coming to it from independently perusing any data. so yes, the government is there to enforce your beliefs, the same ones they gave you. democracy isn’t a minority rule, and conjuring up a so-called ‘majoritarianism’ is almost a dirty trick. the standout symbol of democracy is the election where the popular, by a mere enumeration of votes, wins the day. we are not allowed to disqualify ‘unqualified’ votes. do you have an example of a democracy where the minority wins? > it is our duty as human beings to point out the contradictions and hypocrisy in ourselves and our societies. not essentially our responsibility qua human beings but of heretics. the mechanisms for this sort of analysis and meta analysis are not by default available to all human beings. they’re acquired through education and through use. so whose responsibility is it to critique the current order? because most of us are blind to it. in the many challenges we face daily, bodily survival takes precedence, and when the current order doesn’t interfere in threatening ways, we can acquiesce.
    - aniviacat 2y ago
      > ‘personal opinion’ from an adult who has been subjected to education is usually a misnomer. they’re not coming to it from independently perusing any data. so yes, the government is there to enforce your beliefs, the same ones they gave you. Of course our values are influenced by the society we grow up in. If people weren't influenced by those surrounding them, I believe our society would significantly worse off. (In my country the government does not have direct enough control over education to dictate the culture being taught. It's the teachers, or more general, the society as a whole, which teaches its values to young people.) But I don't think it's reasonable to discredit someone's believes as their own, just because they were influenced by others. People who grow up within the same society do still often have opinions which differ greatly. So while people certainly are influenced by their society, they still shape their opinions themselves.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  But see, Jesus taught that sin isn't just what we do. It starts in our hearts, and then what's inside spills out. Even if you're the government, you can't write a law or enforce a law against, say, adultery. You can stop - or at least reduce - the external behavior. But you can't change hearts by an external law. You just create people who are different on the outside than they are on the inside. "Hypocrites" is a term for that, which comes from the Greek word for "actors" - people who pretend to be something they're not. That's not going to keep them from hell. It might keep them from jail, but that's not the same thing.

gryzzly 2y ago

The fanatics in the gov are kept through aliance with other similar kleptocrats like Putin and Kims, has nothing to do with self determination

aniviacat 2y ago

If you truly believe that people who do not follow the laws of your religion will go to eternal hell, it does make a lot of sense, and really is completely morally sound, to push others into following the laws using any means necessary. I'm not religious myself. But in my country, if someone is actively suicidal (say they are standing on top of a building, planning to jump) they are (forcefully) stopped. I think that's a good thing. Now, of I was religious, I would believe that sinning (and therefore going to hell) would be way way way worse to do to oneself, even when compared to suicide. So just like I agree with forcefully preventing someone from following their will to commit suicide, I would probably agree with forcefully preventing people from sinning. If you are religious (and believe that sinning = hell), these laws make a lot of sense. Perhaps they should be even harsher.

noduerme 2y ago
There are several flaws in your reasoning. Firstly, you conflate your personal feelings with the rule of law. You may personally agree or disagree with preventing people from committing suicide, or violating religious norms, but that should be completely separate from whether you think the government should enforce your personal belief on people who believe otherwise. In a democracy, the government is not there to enforce your beliefs, it is there to prevent other people's beliefs from overriding your right to have your own. [edit: This is also an aspect of democracy that is not well understood in countries with a history of authoritarian or majoritarian rule. Democracies are an engine of creating higher efficiency and flourishing because they tend to protect minority views and are thus open to constant change and debate, which in turn are the drivers of economic growth. In authoritarian minds, change and debate are viewed as hindrances or dangers to the status quo; thus such societies stagnate. I'm practically explaining how Lebanon can't generate a home-made pager whilst a similarly sized country next door and carved up from the Ottoman empire at the same time... which prizes individuality and debate... can, well... nevermind] Secondly, you make a false assumption that just because a society agrees with you on one thing, you must agree with it on everything else. It would be perfectly rational to be against both the death penalty and against abortion, yet many people are for one and against the other. You make a case that if you lived in a society where the morality pointed a certain way, it would be natural for yourself just to go along without questioning its hypocrisy. That is, quite literally, you are making a case for not thinking for yourself as an individual or seeing anything wrong with the contradictions of whatever society you live in. It is our duty as human beings to point out the contradictions and hypocrisy in ourselves and our societies, to improve them. You are making the most retrograde, anti-liberal case possible by saying you would not question the values you were surrounded by.
- yawboakye 2y ago
  there are graver flaws in your analysis. his so-called personal beliefs are shared and deliberately engendered through education. one may say, i think suicide should be prevented at all cost. but when they do so they’re not expressing a personal opinion but rather the result of their education and training. and education is conducted with the law in mind. ‘personal opinion’ from an adult who has been subjected to education is usually a misnomer. they’re not coming to it from independently perusing any data. so yes, the government is there to enforce your beliefs, the same ones they gave you. democracy isn’t a minority rule, and conjuring up a so-called ‘majoritarianism’ is almost a dirty trick. the standout symbol of democracy is the election where the popular, by a mere enumeration of votes, wins the day. we are not allowed to disqualify ‘unqualified’ votes. do you have an example of a democracy where the minority wins? > it is our duty as human beings to point out the contradictions and hypocrisy in ourselves and our societies. not essentially our responsibility qua human beings but of heretics. the mechanisms for this sort of analysis and meta analysis are not by default available to all human beings. they’re acquired through education and through use. so whose responsibility is it to critique the current order? because most of us are blind to it. in the many challenges we face daily, bodily survival takes precedence, and when the current order doesn’t interfere in threatening ways, we can acquiesce.
  - aniviacat 2y ago
    > ‘personal opinion’ from an adult who has been subjected to education is usually a misnomer. they’re not coming to it from independently perusing any data. so yes, the government is there to enforce your beliefs, the same ones they gave you. Of course our values are influenced by the society we grow up in. If people weren't influenced by those surrounding them, I believe our society would significantly worse off. (In my country the government does not have direct enough control over education to dictate the culture being taught. It's the teachers, or more general, the society as a whole, which teaches its values to young people.) But I don't think it's reasonable to discredit someone's believes as their own, just because they were influenced by others. People who grow up within the same society do still often have opinions which differ greatly. So while people certainly are influenced by their society, they still shape their opinions themselves.
AnimalMuppet 2y ago
But see, Jesus taught that sin isn't just what we do. It starts in our hearts, and then what's inside spills out. Even if you're the government, you can't write a law or enforce a law against, say, adultery. You can stop - or at least reduce - the external behavior. But you can't change hearts by an external law. You just create people who are different on the outside than they are on the inside. "Hypocrites" is a term for that, which comes from the Greek word for "actors" - people who pretend to be something they're not. That's not going to keep them from hell. It might keep them from jail, but that's not the same thing.