4 ms·

The idea that other worlds would be your deal breaker on Christianity is strange. They were fine with two continents needing over a millennium to first hear abo

The idea that other worlds would be your deal breaker on Christianity is strange. They were fine with two continents needing over a millennium to first hear about Jesus, but a plurality of worlds would be "irreconcilable." Maybe they couldn't imagine space travel ever being possible?

hypertele-Xii 2y ago
Space travel isn't currently possible. It ever becoming possible is pure speculation on your part. No man has ever left the Earth and set up shop elsewhere and lived. None. Zilch. It's science fiction.
- TimTheTinker 2y ago
  Yes, in the same way that affordable flying cars are science fiction. The technology is known in theory; we just have (possibly insurmountable) political, financial, and legal hurdles to overcome before it will become possible.
  - renox 2y ago
    Not really comparable. Flying cars are not technological fiction, they're just called helicopters, it's just that from a economic/ecology POV they make no sense. Space travel between worlds is SF.
    - short_sells_poo 2y ago
      But we have sent probes to other worlds? What is science fiction about this? A manned mission to Mars is entirely feasible with current technology. In fact I'd argue it'd have been feasible with 1980s technology, it was simply costly. If we (we as in humankind) wanted, we could have a base on Mars for some time now. Who is to say what our capabilities will be in 50 years? In 100 years? A manned mission to another solar system is going to be very-very difficult, we'd need generational space ship/habitats. Note that difficult is not the same as impossible. Such a ship could be feasibly constructed with modern day technology, but it would be enormously costly so there was no motivation to do it. I'd agree with your point that a mission to another galaxy is basically unimaginable with technology we can realistically theorize about today. We'd need extremely exotic physics which are unlikely to be doable ever.
      - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
        > But we have sent probes to other worlds? What is science fiction about this? Probes aren't space travel for humans. > A manned mission to Mars is entirely feasible with current technology. As no manned missions to Mars have ever proven this conjecture, it is still entirely speculation on your part. > A manned mission to another solar system is going to be very-very difficult, we'd need generational space ship/habitats. Note that difficult is not the same as impossible. No, it is impossible. Humans cannot survive in space that long. Never have, currently can't, and there's no precedent to assume it ever becomes possible. Pure speculation on your part.
        mehphp 2y ago
        >As no manned missions to Mars have ever proven this conjecture, it is still entirely speculation on your part. But we do have manned missions to other celestial bodies, and we have sent and landed probes on Mars. I'm confused as to how a manned mission to Mars is "entirely speculation". >no precedent to assume it ever becomes possible This isn't a qualifier for what is possible. We knew it was possible to go to the moon before there was precedent. If anything, you calling it impossible is pure speculation. OP is right, difficult is not the same as impossible.
        tgv 2y ago
        Manned, i.e. containing people (men).
        mehphp 2y ago
        um, yes?
        TimTheTinker 2y ago
        Agree that interstellar travel is impossible with current tech. But based on what I know, I don't see any reason to believe a manned mission to Mars is impossible with current technology. Do you have specific reasons we can't, or examples of technological gaps?
    - VoreLuka 2y ago
      It miht be science fiction but before the space race traveling to the moon was science fiction too. Yet we did not only travel to the moon but actually walk on it. I don't have any doubts that at some point humanity will find a way to do interstellar travel. Though I doubt it will happen in our lifetime
- paulluuk 2y ago
  There are people living in space stations right now? Are you saying rockets are fake or do you mean that we don't have any permanent habitats on other planets? E.g. https://whoisinspace.com/ https://whoisinspace.com/
  - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
    They are not living in space, they are temporary visitors on an unstable structure that requires constant resupply from Earth, absent of which they will all die and the structure falls back to Earth and is destroyed. Even with indefinite resupply, astronauts have to return to Earth for health reasons, because our bodies did not evolve / were not designed for space. Astronauts get irradiated and lose reproductive fertility.
    - scottyah 2y ago
      I can't really find where your line for "space travel" is. Humans on earth need resupply from other parts of earth, the bases on Antarctica are about equally as unhospitable towards humans, not to mention cruise ships where some people live aboard for years at a time. Heck, my own house is an unsustainable habitat that requires constant resupply.
    - micahdeath 2y ago
      We are lose reproductive fertility on earth too.
- BirAdam 2y ago
  Space travel is not science fiction. Living somewhere other than Earth permanently is science fiction. Science fiction often becomes reality. There are companies, governments, and NGOs working on extraterrestrial habitation as we discuss this. While it will be expensive and make many rather unhappy, it will likely happen… assuming that humankind doesn’t annihilate itself first.
the_af 2y ago
> They were fine with two continents needing over a millennium to first hear about Jesus, but a plurality of worlds would be "irreconcilable." I think there's many ways to think about this. First, the place where Christ was supposed to have been born is "special". Clearly he (or god) chose to be born in some continent and not another. Now multiply to... how many planets are there in the universe? What's the chance that Earth in particular was a special planet to be born in? Second, I think the tale of Christianity is meant to be both unique and universal. It's not "this is the shape it happens to have taken in our world", it's meant to be "this is the shape it universally takes" (e.g. "love one another [...]", what if aliens are biologically incapable of love? What if they are a hive mind? Etc). The lessons are meant to be for the cosmos. This excludes all other worlds, or at the very least it'd require a fundamental revision of what Christianity means. Third, look at the time frames. How long did it take from Christ being born to natives in other continents being "saved"? Very little given the time life (not even human life) has existed on Earth. So if we're going with the "missionary" hypothesis, i.e. that people of Earth are supposed to evangelize to aliens all over the universe, how long is this going to take? Is this even technologically possible before the universe ends? Does this mean some aliens are doomed no matter what, because they live so far from us they'll never get to hear about Jesus? I'm an atheist but I can see some sort of religion being created that encompasses all of the universe. It would have to be different to Christianity though. I think this is why these thinkers thought the "multiple worlds" hypothesis was at odds with their religion.
- throw0101a 2y ago
  > First, the place where Christ was supposed to have been born is "special". Clearly he (or god) chose to be born in some continent and not another. Now multiply to... how many planets are there in the universe? What's the chance that Earth in particular was a special planet to be born in? Some discussion: > When asked how aliens could be redeemed, [Vatican Observatory head] Father Funes referred to the Gospel parable of the lost sheep. Aliens, he speculated, could already be redeemed because they could have remained in full friendship with God, while the human race “could be precisely the lost sheep, the sinners that need the shepherd.” > But what if they were sinners like us? Father Funes replied that just as Jesus is believed to have come to save mankind, so he was sure that they, “in some way, would have the chance to enjoy God’s mercy.” […] > The question has also been debated within the Church since the Middle Ages and was discussed by Christian apologist C.S. Lewis, whose fictional “Space Trilogy” featured extraterrestrial beings. * https://www.ncregister.com/news/alien-life-out-there https://www.ncregister.com/news/alien-life-out-there
throw0101a 2y ago
> The idea that other worlds would be your deal breaker on Christianity is strange. "Vatican Holds Conference on Extraterrestrial Life": * https://www.universetoday.com/44713/vatican-holds-conference-on-extraterrestrial-life/ https://www.universetoday.com/44713/vatican-holds-conference... * https://phys.org/news/2009-11-vatican-extra-terrestrial-life.html https://phys.org/news/2009-11-vatican-extra-terrestrial-life... * https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican-discusses-extraterrestrial-life https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican-discusses-extraterres... See also the book Would You Baptize an Extraterrestrial?, co-authored by the director of the Vatican Observatory (Br. Guy Consolmagno, SJ): * https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/228109/would-you-baptize-an-extraterrestrial-by-guy-consolmagno-sj-and-paul-mueller-sj/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/228109/would-you-ba...
- boomboomsubban 2y ago
  If only Horace Walpole had lived another 212 years and been Catholic. Then he might not have considered them irreconcilable.

hypertele-Xii 2y ago

Space travel isn't currently possible. It ever becoming possible is pure speculation on your part. No man has ever left the Earth and set up shop elsewhere and lived. None. Zilch. It's science fiction.

TimTheTinker 2y ago
Yes, in the same way that affordable flying cars are science fiction. The technology is known in theory; we just have (possibly insurmountable) political, financial, and legal hurdles to overcome before it will become possible.
- renox 2y ago
  Not really comparable. Flying cars are not technological fiction, they're just called helicopters, it's just that from a economic/ecology POV they make no sense. Space travel between worlds is SF.
  - short_sells_poo 2y ago
    But we have sent probes to other worlds? What is science fiction about this? A manned mission to Mars is entirely feasible with current technology. In fact I'd argue it'd have been feasible with 1980s technology, it was simply costly. If we (we as in humankind) wanted, we could have a base on Mars for some time now. Who is to say what our capabilities will be in 50 years? In 100 years? A manned mission to another solar system is going to be very-very difficult, we'd need generational space ship/habitats. Note that difficult is not the same as impossible. Such a ship could be feasibly constructed with modern day technology, but it would be enormously costly so there was no motivation to do it. I'd agree with your point that a mission to another galaxy is basically unimaginable with technology we can realistically theorize about today. We'd need extremely exotic physics which are unlikely to be doable ever.
    - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
      > But we have sent probes to other worlds? What is science fiction about this? Probes aren't space travel for humans. > A manned mission to Mars is entirely feasible with current technology. As no manned missions to Mars have ever proven this conjecture, it is still entirely speculation on your part. > A manned mission to another solar system is going to be very-very difficult, we'd need generational space ship/habitats. Note that difficult is not the same as impossible. No, it is impossible. Humans cannot survive in space that long. Never have, currently can't, and there's no precedent to assume it ever becomes possible. Pure speculation on your part.
      - mehphp 2y ago
        >As no manned missions to Mars have ever proven this conjecture, it is still entirely speculation on your part. But we do have manned missions to other celestial bodies, and we have sent and landed probes on Mars. I'm confused as to how a manned mission to Mars is "entirely speculation". >no precedent to assume it ever becomes possible This isn't a qualifier for what is possible. We knew it was possible to go to the moon before there was precedent. If anything, you calling it impossible is pure speculation. OP is right, difficult is not the same as impossible.
        tgv 2y ago
        Manned, i.e. containing people (men).
        mehphp 2y ago
        um, yes?
      - TimTheTinker 2y ago
        Agree that interstellar travel is impossible with current tech. But based on what I know, I don't see any reason to believe a manned mission to Mars is impossible with current technology. Do you have specific reasons we can't, or examples of technological gaps?
  - VoreLuka 2y ago
    It miht be science fiction but before the space race traveling to the moon was science fiction too. Yet we did not only travel to the moon but actually walk on it. I don't have any doubts that at some point humanity will find a way to do interstellar travel. Though I doubt it will happen in our lifetime
paulluuk 2y ago
There are people living in space stations right now? Are you saying rockets are fake or do you mean that we don't have any permanent habitats on other planets? E.g. https://whoisinspace.com/ https://whoisinspace.com/
- hypertele-Xii 2y ago
  They are not living in space, they are temporary visitors on an unstable structure that requires constant resupply from Earth, absent of which they will all die and the structure falls back to Earth and is destroyed. Even with indefinite resupply, astronauts have to return to Earth for health reasons, because our bodies did not evolve / were not designed for space. Astronauts get irradiated and lose reproductive fertility.
  - scottyah 2y ago
    I can't really find where your line for "space travel" is. Humans on earth need resupply from other parts of earth, the bases on Antarctica are about equally as unhospitable towards humans, not to mention cruise ships where some people live aboard for years at a time. Heck, my own house is an unsustainable habitat that requires constant resupply.
  - micahdeath 2y ago
    We are lose reproductive fertility on earth too.
BirAdam 2y ago
Space travel is not science fiction. Living somewhere other than Earth permanently is science fiction. Science fiction often becomes reality. There are companies, governments, and NGOs working on extraterrestrial habitation as we discuss this. While it will be expensive and make many rather unhappy, it will likely happen… assuming that humankind doesn’t annihilate itself first.

the_af 2y ago

> They were fine with two continents needing over a millennium to first hear about Jesus, but a plurality of worlds would be "irreconcilable." I think there's many ways to think about this. First, the place where Christ was supposed to have been born is "special". Clearly he (or god) chose to be born in some continent and not another. Now multiply to... how many planets are there in the universe? What's the chance that Earth in particular was a special planet to be born in? Second, I think the tale of Christianity is meant to be both unique and universal. It's not "this is the shape it happens to have taken in our world", it's meant to be "this is the shape it universally takes" (e.g. "love one another [...]", what if aliens are biologically incapable of love? What if they are a hive mind? Etc). The lessons are meant to be for the cosmos. This excludes all other worlds, or at the very least it'd require a fundamental revision of what Christianity means. Third, look at the time frames. How long did it take from Christ being born to natives in other continents being "saved"? Very little given the time life (not even human life) has existed on Earth. So if we're going with the "missionary" hypothesis, i.e. that people of Earth are supposed to evangelize to aliens all over the universe, how long is this going to take? Is this even technologically possible before the universe ends? Does this mean some aliens are doomed no matter what, because they live so far from us they'll never get to hear about Jesus? I'm an atheist but I can see some sort of religion being created that encompasses all of the universe. It would have to be different to Christianity though. I think this is why these thinkers thought the "multiple worlds" hypothesis was at odds with their religion.

throw0101a 2y ago
> First, the place where Christ was supposed to have been born is "special". Clearly he (or god) chose to be born in some continent and not another. Now multiply to... how many planets are there in the universe? What's the chance that Earth in particular was a special planet to be born in? Some discussion: > When asked how aliens could be redeemed, [Vatican Observatory head] Father Funes referred to the Gospel parable of the lost sheep. Aliens, he speculated, could already be redeemed because they could have remained in full friendship with God, while the human race “could be precisely the lost sheep, the sinners that need the shepherd.” > But what if they were sinners like us? Father Funes replied that just as Jesus is believed to have come to save mankind, so he was sure that they, “in some way, would have the chance to enjoy God’s mercy.” […] > The question has also been debated within the Church since the Middle Ages and was discussed by Christian apologist C.S. Lewis, whose fictional “Space Trilogy” featured extraterrestrial beings. * https://www.ncregister.com/news/alien-life-out-there https://www.ncregister.com/news/alien-life-out-there

throw0101a 2y ago

> The idea that other worlds would be your deal breaker on Christianity is strange. "Vatican Holds Conference on Extraterrestrial Life": * https://www.universetoday.com/44713/vatican-holds-conference-on-extraterrestrial-life/ https://www.universetoday.com/44713/vatican-holds-conference... * https://phys.org/news/2009-11-vatican-extra-terrestrial-life.html https://phys.org/news/2009-11-vatican-extra-terrestrial-life... * https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican-discusses-extraterrestrial-life https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican-discusses-extraterres... See also the book Would You Baptize an Extraterrestrial?, co-authored by the director of the Vatican Observatory (Br. Guy Consolmagno, SJ): * https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/228109/would-you-baptize-an-extraterrestrial-by-guy-consolmagno-sj-and-paul-mueller-sj/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/228109/would-you-ba...

boomboomsubban 2y ago
If only Horace Walpole had lived another 212 years and been Catholic. Then he might not have considered them irreconcilable.