5 ms·

On your B) It seems according to 15 minutes of research, it varies a bit on circumstance and where you live but it can be considered "constructive dismissal" i

On your B) It seems according to 15 minutes of research, it varies a bit on circumstance and where you live but it can be considered "constructive dismissal" in some places. You may be eligible for severance or unemployment if you refuse the demotion. Of course, IAMNAL etc...

b112 2y ago
This varies a lot on region, and even (for example in Canada) provincial jurisdiction, but I agree at the core this is a match. I've seen constructive dismissal discussed for even adding on-call to someone who was hired without on-call requirements, unilaterally. The logic being "You're suddenly asking me to be paged at any time when on call, that wasn't part of the job description", and it is paramount to effectively "firing and re-hiring" a person in another role without their permission. Why I mention legal jurisdictions, and the above example, is because some US states are 'at will' employment states. In such a state, you can just fire anyone at any time, and thus the whole "fired and re-hired" thing doesn't kick in... as the 'fire' part is a-ok. People have contracts in such states, typically, especially at a CPO executive level. So I really wonder here, will this be more about breach of contract? (Of course, there are other issues. The disclosure of medical info... that's just bizarre, and smacks of massive inexperience and lack of judgement, if true)
worble 2y ago
I don't know exactly how it works in the states, but I'm assuming you still sign a contract when accepting a job? That contract has all sorts on it, often including job title, expected responsibilities, work hours, etc. If a company decides to change that then you must agree to the new contract, or they risk legal action. If you don't then their options are keep you where you are or fire you, and of course firing someone is it's own minefield, as shown here.
- deafpolygon 2y ago
  Contracts? In the states? Haha.. that's a good one.
  - mosselman 2y ago
    Wait what? No employment contract?? Can you unpack this a little bit?
    - alwa 2y ago
      I uh… USians don’t do those. When they do, it tends to be a one-sided kind of thing to protect the company’s interests—NDAs, codes of conduct, accept our policies today and whatever we change them to in the future, that sort of thing. Most places, work happens at the whim of the employer (and, for what little it’s worth, the whim of the employee): employment is “at-will,” states are “right-to-work,” and so on. Don’t know about others, but I’ve never once in my life signed a contract to work in the US.
      - meindnoch 2y ago
        Wtf? So how do you know your current salary? How do you know your work hours?
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        nrb 2y ago
        This info often comes in the form of an offer letter that is accepted verbally or in writing. In most cases employment in the US is at-will and does not involve a formal employment contract: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
        DavidPeiffer 2y ago
        Your monetary compensation is in an offer letter you sign to accept the role. Salary exempt status is a fixed value per time period, or separately a hourly rate. If paid hourly, you're typically entitled to 1.5x pay after 40 hours of work. Salaried exempt status are not mandated overtime pay. What hours you work depends. Salaried is expecting a job to be done regardless of the hours to complete. Hourly is a mixed bag of "the schedule for next week is posted every Tuesday" (common in restaurants) or routine hours long-term (such as shift work in factories). It's awkward to try to explain, but here are some pros and cons from other people. https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditForGrownups/comments/16606tt/which_is_better_hourly_or_salary/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditForGrownups/comments/16606tt/...
- throwaway48540 2y ago
  This isn't the case even in EU, much less in US where they often don't sign any employment contract.
  - spoiler 2y ago
    Regarding the EU thing: maybe I've just had an odd experience, but I've always signed employment contracts. Even when I was a student I had a contract from the company I worked at (it was a separate contract, not the usual student contract that I had to get also).
  - worble 2y ago
    I can only speak to the UK where I have always been given a employment contract but it appears that something similar is a requirement in the EU https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/employment-contracts/employment-terms/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/employ... >When you hire staff, you should provide them with a written contract or an equivalent written statement confirming their working conditions The fact it can be a statement rather than a contract may have an impact on the companies ability to change it at any given time without agreement from the employee, but I'm not an EU employment lawyer
    - throwaway48540 2y ago
      Every company I ever worked for had a "any changes are permitted, refusing means quitting" clause.
      - tpxl 2y ago
        That is quite literally illegal where I live. Any annex to the contract (including base salary changes) must be _voluntarily_ signed by the employee. Forcing signing is illegal. When covid started, my company gave all employees annexes to reduce our pay by 20%, but keep our workload the same. I told 2 bosses, the HR employee and the director of HR mobbing me I will not sign and to piss off. I was the only one to do so out of ~150 employees. I kept my full salary until I quit my job because I don't like working for cunts.

b112 2y ago

This varies a lot on region, and even (for example in Canada) provincial jurisdiction, but I agree at the core this is a match. I've seen constructive dismissal discussed for even adding on-call to someone who was hired without on-call requirements, unilaterally. The logic being "You're suddenly asking me to be paged at any time when on call, that wasn't part of the job description", and it is paramount to effectively "firing and re-hiring" a person in another role without their permission. Why I mention legal jurisdictions, and the above example, is because some US states are 'at will' employment states. In such a state, you can just fire anyone at any time, and thus the whole "fired and re-hired" thing doesn't kick in... as the 'fire' part is a-ok. People have contracts in such states, typically, especially at a CPO executive level. So I really wonder here, will this be more about breach of contract? (Of course, there are other issues. The disclosure of medical info... that's just bizarre, and smacks of massive inexperience and lack of judgement, if true)

worble 2y ago

I don't know exactly how it works in the states, but I'm assuming you still sign a contract when accepting a job? That contract has all sorts on it, often including job title, expected responsibilities, work hours, etc. If a company decides to change that then you must agree to the new contract, or they risk legal action. If you don't then their options are keep you where you are or fire you, and of course firing someone is it's own minefield, as shown here.

deafpolygon 2y ago
Contracts? In the states? Haha.. that's a good one.
- mosselman 2y ago
  Wait what? No employment contract?? Can you unpack this a little bit?
  - alwa 2y ago
    I uh… USians don’t do those. When they do, it tends to be a one-sided kind of thing to protect the company’s interests—NDAs, codes of conduct, accept our policies today and whatever we change them to in the future, that sort of thing. Most places, work happens at the whim of the employer (and, for what little it’s worth, the whim of the employee): employment is “at-will,” states are “right-to-work,” and so on. Don’t know about others, but I’ve never once in my life signed a contract to work in the US.
    - meindnoch 2y ago
      Wtf? So how do you know your current salary? How do you know your work hours?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - nrb 2y ago
        This info often comes in the form of an offer letter that is accepted verbally or in writing. In most cases employment in the US is at-will and does not involve a formal employment contract: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
      - DavidPeiffer 2y ago
        Your monetary compensation is in an offer letter you sign to accept the role. Salary exempt status is a fixed value per time period, or separately a hourly rate. If paid hourly, you're typically entitled to 1.5x pay after 40 hours of work. Salaried exempt status are not mandated overtime pay. What hours you work depends. Salaried is expecting a job to be done regardless of the hours to complete. Hourly is a mixed bag of "the schedule for next week is posted every Tuesday" (common in restaurants) or routine hours long-term (such as shift work in factories). It's awkward to try to explain, but here are some pros and cons from other people. https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditForGrownups/comments/16606tt/which_is_better_hourly_or_salary/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditForGrownups/comments/16606tt/...
throwaway48540 2y ago
This isn't the case even in EU, much less in US where they often don't sign any employment contract.
- spoiler 2y ago
  Regarding the EU thing: maybe I've just had an odd experience, but I've always signed employment contracts. Even when I was a student I had a contract from the company I worked at (it was a separate contract, not the usual student contract that I had to get also).
- worble 2y ago
  I can only speak to the UK where I have always been given a employment contract but it appears that something similar is a requirement in the EU https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/employment-contracts/employment-terms/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/employ... >When you hire staff, you should provide them with a written contract or an equivalent written statement confirming their working conditions The fact it can be a statement rather than a contract may have an impact on the companies ability to change it at any given time without agreement from the employee, but I'm not an EU employment lawyer
  - throwaway48540 2y ago
    Every company I ever worked for had a "any changes are permitted, refusing means quitting" clause.
    - tpxl 2y ago
      That is quite literally illegal where I live. Any annex to the contract (including base salary changes) must be _voluntarily_ signed by the employee. Forcing signing is illegal. When covid started, my company gave all employees annexes to reduce our pay by 20%, but keep our workload the same. I told 2 bosses, the HR employee and the director of HR mobbing me I will not sign and to piss off. I was the only one to do so out of ~150 employees. I kept my full salary until I quit my job because I don't like working for cunts.