4 ms·

Now you can choose which SATs you want colleges to see and which you don't

11 points by robg 18y ago

tokenadult 18y ago
Let's see if my FAQ on this subject prepared for another forum, updated with all the latest sources except this latest New York Times link that robg has kindly posted here on Hacker News, is of interest to readers here. ONE-TIME TEST-TAKING Colleges have given up trying to distinguish one-time test-takers from two-time or three-time or even four-time test-takers, because that wasn't useful information to the colleges. There are a number of reasons for that. 1) The colleges have utterly no way of knowing who spends all his free time practicing taking standardized tests and who takes them "cold." 2) The colleges are well aware that students who have actually taken the tests sometimes cancel scores, so they have little incentive to give students bonus consideration if the students submit only one test score. 3) The colleges are aware that students who take the admission tests at middle-school age, who are numerous, do not have their earlier test scores submitted by default. http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/reg/circum/younger.html http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/reg/circum/y... http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/talent_search.htm http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/talent_search.htm http://www.tip.duke.edu/resources/parents_students/interpreting_SAT-ACT_scores.html http://www.tip.duke.edu/resources/parents_students/interpret... 4) Colleges are aware that the majority of students who take the SAT at all take it more than once. http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/Avg_Scores_of_Repeat_Test_Takers.pdf http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/Avg_Score... 5) Colleges are in the business of helping students learn, and they don't mind students taking efforts to improve their scores. They know that students prepare for tests. From the New York Times: "Although coaching would no doubt continue if subject tests replaced the SAT, at least students would be focused on content as much as test-taking strategies, Mr. Murray said. There would also be pressure to improve local high school curriculums so that students were prepared, he wrote. "These arguments make sense to Mr. Fitzsimmons [dean of admission at Harvard], who said, 'People are going to prepare anyway, so they might as well study chemistry or biology.' He added that 'the idea of putting more emphasis on the subject tests is of great interest' to his group." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/19/education/19sat.html?pagewanted=print http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/19/education/19sat.html?pagew... 6) And now the College Board is back in the business of letting students choose which test scores to send into colleges, http://professionals.collegeboard.com/testing/sat-reasoning/scores/policy http://professionals.collegeboard.com/testing/sat-reasoning/... so now there is less reason than ever to suppose that colleges care how many times you take the test, because the colleges have no way to know how many times you took the test officially. Colleges treat applicants uniformly now by considering their highest scores, period. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/349391-retake-how-many-times-take-sat-act.html#post4198038 http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/349391-ret... http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/utilities/electronic_resources/viewbook/Rollo0809_GuideApplying.pdf http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/utilities/electron... From the Harvard admission office: "If you submit more than one set of scores for any of the required tests, the Admissions Committee considers only your best scores—even if your strongest SAT Subject Tests or portions of the SAT Reasoning Test were taken on different dates." See also a Newsweek article about the renewed score choice policy adopted by College Board. http://www.newsweek.com/id/172585 http://www.newsweek.com/id/172585 Some colleges want to see all scores a student has ever obtained, period, but as one admission officer asks, if "a student submits a single best sitting of 2320," does anyone really care "how low were her other score sets?"
- yters 18y ago
  It isn't much of an aptitude test in this case.
  - tokenadult 18y ago
    In what case would it be an aptitude test?
    - unalone 18y ago
      All aptitude tests will fail once they become a standard, because suddenly test-takers are able to prepare for their test. Take the SAT. All students are told by teachers that it's in their best interests to buy books of old tests so they can see and memorize the questions and see patterns for answering in the new test. The test suddenly becomes a metatest: the real test is very often about how well you can prepare for a test. And in the end, it doesn't matter, because within a certain percentile colleges don't care. It's all so that CollegeBoard can make a lot of money and certain colleges can use the SAT as a qualifier to filter students more quickly. A real aptitude test might test students' abilities to form opinions and chains of logic. They might test, rather than their ability to write a five-paragraph essay or to understand an analogy, the ability of a student to convey information with as precise language as possible. A math aptitude test may test a student's ability to prove points - but rather than using an obscure formula like current high school geometry, it would use natural language and grade on the idea rather than the jargon. Really, the only aptitude test that matters and can't be faked is one for creativity, and that's only because you can't test on it. (A year ahead of me at the New Jersey Governor's School for the Arts, according to our head instructor, was called by CollegeBoard to try a hypothetical test for creativity - including a multiple choice section, of all things. The test was abandoned when all the handpicked students gave extremely different responses to every question.) I think that's why colleges are abandoning the SAT test as criteria. Some top-notch colleges don't ask for test scores at all (some are even weaning away from GPA, which is a godsend for certain types of students). That's a smart choice on their part. What do test scores prove? Our year's valedictorian, a very bright girl who also took a dozen SAT practice tests, got a 1600 on the main section. I had no practice tests and got a 1510. In the end, the numbers are so close as not to matter. Even a perfect 800 category means nothing other than a person's happening not to slip up (and with a 4-hour test, slip-ups are all too common). Our principal, at a ceremony, gave us awards for our perfect sections while talking about how this made us perfect scholars. This is a terrible mindset with testing and it encourages things to get only worse.
arjungmenon 18y ago
I wish it had been so when I wrote the SAT.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
mamama 18y ago
Just another way for the ETS to sandwich more money.

11 points by robg 18y ago

Let's see if my FAQ on this subject prepared for another forum, updated with all the latest sources except this latest New York Times link that robg has kindly posted here on Hacker News, is of interest to readers here. ONE-TIME TEST-TAKING Colleges have given up trying to distinguish one-time test-takers from two-time or three-time or even four-time test-takers, because that wasn't useful information to the colleges. There are a number of reasons for that. 1) The colleges have utterly no way of knowing who spends all his free time practicing taking standardized tests and who takes them "cold." 2) The colleges are well aware that students who have actually taken the tests sometimes cancel scores, so they have little incentive to give students bonus consideration if the students submit only one test score. 3) The colleges are aware that students who take the admission tests at middle-school age, who are numerous, do not have their earlier test scores submitted by default. http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/reg/circum/younger.html http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/reg/circum/y... http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/talent_search.htm http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/talent_search.htm http://www.tip.duke.edu/resources/parents_students/interpreting_SAT-ACT_scores.html http://www.tip.duke.edu/resources/parents_students/interpret... 4) Colleges are aware that the majority of students who take the SAT at all take it more than once. http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/Avg_Scores_of_Repeat_Test_Takers.pdf http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/Avg_Score... 5) Colleges are in the business of helping students learn, and they don't mind students taking efforts to improve their scores. They know that students prepare for tests. From the New York Times: "Although coaching would no doubt continue if subject tests replaced the SAT, at least students would be focused on content as much as test-taking strategies, Mr. Murray said. There would also be pressure to improve local high school curriculums so that students were prepared, he wrote. "These arguments make sense to Mr. Fitzsimmons [dean of admission at Harvard], who said, 'People are going to prepare anyway, so they might as well study chemistry or biology.' He added that 'the idea of putting more emphasis on the subject tests is of great interest' to his group." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/19/education/19sat.html?pagewanted=print http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/19/education/19sat.html?pagew... 6) And now the College Board is back in the business of letting students choose which test scores to send into colleges, http://professionals.collegeboard.com/testing/sat-reasoning/scores/policy http://professionals.collegeboard.com/testing/sat-reasoning/... so now there is less reason than ever to suppose that colleges care how many times you take the test, because the colleges have no way to know how many times you took the test officially. Colleges treat applicants uniformly now by considering their highest scores, period. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/349391-retake-how-many-times-take-sat-act.html#post4198038 http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/349391-ret... http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/utilities/electronic_resources/viewbook/Rollo0809_GuideApplying.pdf http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/utilities/electron... From the Harvard admission office: "If you submit more than one set of scores for any of the required tests, the Admissions Committee considers only your best scores—even if your strongest SAT Subject Tests or portions of the SAT Reasoning Test were taken on different dates." See also a Newsweek article about the renewed score choice policy adopted by College Board. http://www.newsweek.com/id/172585 http://www.newsweek.com/id/172585 Some colleges want to see all scores a student has ever obtained, period, but as one admission officer asks, if "a student submits a single best sitting of 2320," does anyone really care "how low were her other score sets?"

yters 18y ago
It isn't much of an aptitude test in this case.
- tokenadult 18y ago
  In what case would it be an aptitude test?
  - unalone 18y ago
    All aptitude tests will fail once they become a standard, because suddenly test-takers are able to prepare for their test. Take the SAT. All students are told by teachers that it's in their best interests to buy books of old tests so they can see and memorize the questions and see patterns for answering in the new test. The test suddenly becomes a metatest: the real test is very often about how well you can prepare for a test. And in the end, it doesn't matter, because within a certain percentile colleges don't care. It's all so that CollegeBoard can make a lot of money and certain colleges can use the SAT as a qualifier to filter students more quickly. A real aptitude test might test students' abilities to form opinions and chains of logic. They might test, rather than their ability to write a five-paragraph essay or to understand an analogy, the ability of a student to convey information with as precise language as possible. A math aptitude test may test a student's ability to prove points - but rather than using an obscure formula like current high school geometry, it would use natural language and grade on the idea rather than the jargon. Really, the only aptitude test that matters and can't be faked is one for creativity, and that's only because you can't test on it. (A year ahead of me at the New Jersey Governor's School for the Arts, according to our head instructor, was called by CollegeBoard to try a hypothetical test for creativity - including a multiple choice section, of all things. The test was abandoned when all the handpicked students gave extremely different responses to every question.) I think that's why colleges are abandoning the SAT test as criteria. Some top-notch colleges don't ask for test scores at all (some are even weaning away from GPA, which is a godsend for certain types of students). That's a smart choice on their part. What do test scores prove? Our year's valedictorian, a very bright girl who also took a dozen SAT practice tests, got a 1600 on the main section. I had no practice tests and got a 1510. In the end, the numbers are so close as not to matter. Even a perfect 800 category means nothing other than a person's happening not to slip up (and with a 4-hour test, slip-ups are all too common). Our principal, at a ceremony, gave us awards for our perfect sections while talking about how this made us perfect scholars. This is a terrible mindset with testing and it encourages things to get only worse.

arjungmenon 18y ago

I wish it had been so when I wrote the SAT.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

mamama 18y ago

Just another way for the ETS to sandwich more money.