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Wow, WILD story. Any armchair lawyers around to fill me in on the legality of firing someone in retaliation for suing you for discrimination…? The details are

by bbor 2y ago

Wow, WILD story. Any armchair lawyers around to fill me in on the legality of firing someone in retaliation for suing you for discrimination…? The details are here, he posted this link a while back: https://www.geekwire.com/2024/mozillas-product-chief-sues-the-firefox-maker-alleging-discrimination-after-cancer-diagnosis/ https://www.geekwire.com/2024/mozillas-product-chief-sues-th... With some crazy quotes; On April 24, the suit says, Mozilla formally proposed to demote Teixeira to senior vice president of technology strategy, with a 40% reduction in total compensation. He declined to accept the role change. He had not requested additional flexibility related to his diagnosis, the suit says. The suit alleges that Chambers [new CEO] pressed ahead, informing other Mozilla leaders about the demotion, and telling Teixeira’s direct reports that “it would be tough for him to continue to run a large team because of his health,” despite lacking his consent to share information about his health with others inside the company. A) that’s a pretty slam-dunk case if they have witnesses to testify she said such things, and B) you can “decline to accept” a demotion?? I gotta try that next time!

cwbriscoe 2y ago
On your B) It seems according to 15 minutes of research, it varies a bit on circumstance and where you live but it can be considered "constructive dismissal" in some places. You may be eligible for severance or unemployment if you refuse the demotion. Of course, IAMNAL etc...
- b112 2y ago
  This varies a lot on region, and even (for example in Canada) provincial jurisdiction, but I agree at the core this is a match. I've seen constructive dismissal discussed for even adding on-call to someone who was hired without on-call requirements, unilaterally. The logic being "You're suddenly asking me to be paged at any time when on call, that wasn't part of the job description", and it is paramount to effectively "firing and re-hiring" a person in another role without their permission. Why I mention legal jurisdictions, and the above example, is because some US states are 'at will' employment states. In such a state, you can just fire anyone at any time, and thus the whole "fired and re-hired" thing doesn't kick in... as the 'fire' part is a-ok. People have contracts in such states, typically, especially at a CPO executive level. So I really wonder here, will this be more about breach of contract? (Of course, there are other issues. The disclosure of medical info... that's just bizarre, and smacks of massive inexperience and lack of judgement, if true)
- worble 2y ago
  I don't know exactly how it works in the states, but I'm assuming you still sign a contract when accepting a job? That contract has all sorts on it, often including job title, expected responsibilities, work hours, etc. If a company decides to change that then you must agree to the new contract, or they risk legal action. If you don't then their options are keep you where you are or fire you, and of course firing someone is it's own minefield, as shown here.
  - deafpolygon 2y ago
    Contracts? In the states? Haha.. that's a good one.
    - mosselman 2y ago
      Wait what? No employment contract?? Can you unpack this a little bit?
      - alwa 2y ago
        I uh… USians don’t do those. When they do, it tends to be a one-sided kind of thing to protect the company’s interests—NDAs, codes of conduct, accept our policies today and whatever we change them to in the future, that sort of thing. Most places, work happens at the whim of the employer (and, for what little it’s worth, the whim of the employee): employment is “at-will,” states are “right-to-work,” and so on. Don’t know about others, but I’ve never once in my life signed a contract to work in the US.
        meindnoch 2y ago
        Wtf? So how do you know your current salary? How do you know your work hours?
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        2y ago
adityaathalyo 2y ago
[flagged]
bartread 2y ago
This is one of the shittiest pieces of behaviour by an employer I've ever read about. Just awful. Whilst this will make the square root of no difference, I don't want to support Mozilla with this sort of behaviour going on, so what do I do for a web browser now? I switched back to Firefox as my main browser some years ago because, well, Google and privacy concerns related to them. What now? Brave is dicey. Opera? SeaMonkey (which I think may nowadays be independent of Mozilla)? The thing is I do a lot of web development so I need a browser that offers an at least decent developer experience on macOS.
- ZunarJ5 2y ago
  Ladybird
  - shafyy 2y ago
    Sure but Ladybird won't be released before Summer 2026...
    - cholantesh 2y ago
      Is the source not available to build a preview today?
      - shafyy 2y ago
        Might be, but I doubt that it is a full-time replacement for a mature browser like Firefox today.
- r-w 2y ago
  Brave with the shady features switched off. There’s still some privacy burden on the user, but it’s no comparison with Chrome and they’re pushing the envelope on privacy in other aspects. Firefox forks are another option, depending on your reasons for avoiding the original.
  - akimbostrawman 2y ago
kwhitefoot 2y ago
In Norway this is flatly illegal and the relevant government department would probably get involved. Here in Norway companies are legally required to make accommodations for people who fall ill in order to keep them working, so the new CEO would definitely be in the wrong regardless of whether such additional flexibility had actually been requested. > B) you can “decline to accept” a demotion?? You probably can't simply decline it but you can certainly argue against it and if necessary sue in the courts depending on what your employment contract says. If he resigns then I think under UK law it is arguable that it is constructive dismissal: "Constructive dismissal Constructive dismissal is when you’re forced to leave your job against your will because of your employer’s conduct. The reasons you leave your job must be serious, for example, they: - do not pay you or suddenly demote you for no reason - force you to accept unreasonable changes to how you work - for example, tell you to work night shifts when your contract is only for day work - let other employees harass or bully you " https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/unfair-and-constructive-dismissal https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/unfair-and-constructive-dismiss...
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
While evil, it's common corporate practice (in the US) to get rid of new mothers and employees with deteriorating health, largely by looking for or fabricating trivial excuses to justify their termination. Corporate HR departments excel at finding legal excuses to dodge liability.
greatgib 2y ago
For B), in addition with the fact that a company can't reduce your title or compensation as agreed in your employment contract without your agreement, I can easily guess that in this case it was a proposition of change to accommodate for his health condition. That it looks like that he refused as the proposition looks unsolicited.

by bbor 2y ago

cwbriscoe 2y ago

On your B) It seems according to 15 minutes of research, it varies a bit on circumstance and where you live but it can be considered "constructive dismissal" in some places. You may be eligible for severance or unemployment if you refuse the demotion. Of course, IAMNAL etc...

b112 2y ago
This varies a lot on region, and even (for example in Canada) provincial jurisdiction, but I agree at the core this is a match. I've seen constructive dismissal discussed for even adding on-call to someone who was hired without on-call requirements, unilaterally. The logic being "You're suddenly asking me to be paged at any time when on call, that wasn't part of the job description", and it is paramount to effectively "firing and re-hiring" a person in another role without their permission. Why I mention legal jurisdictions, and the above example, is because some US states are 'at will' employment states. In such a state, you can just fire anyone at any time, and thus the whole "fired and re-hired" thing doesn't kick in... as the 'fire' part is a-ok. People have contracts in such states, typically, especially at a CPO executive level. So I really wonder here, will this be more about breach of contract? (Of course, there are other issues. The disclosure of medical info... that's just bizarre, and smacks of massive inexperience and lack of judgement, if true)
worble 2y ago
I don't know exactly how it works in the states, but I'm assuming you still sign a contract when accepting a job? That contract has all sorts on it, often including job title, expected responsibilities, work hours, etc. If a company decides to change that then you must agree to the new contract, or they risk legal action. If you don't then their options are keep you where you are or fire you, and of course firing someone is it's own minefield, as shown here.
- deafpolygon 2y ago
  Contracts? In the states? Haha.. that's a good one.
  - mosselman 2y ago
    Wait what? No employment contract?? Can you unpack this a little bit?
    - alwa 2y ago
      I uh… USians don’t do those. When they do, it tends to be a one-sided kind of thing to protect the company’s interests—NDAs, codes of conduct, accept our policies today and whatever we change them to in the future, that sort of thing. Most places, work happens at the whim of the employer (and, for what little it’s worth, the whim of the employee): employment is “at-will,” states are “right-to-work,” and so on. Don’t know about others, but I’ve never once in my life signed a contract to work in the US.
      - meindnoch 2y ago
        Wtf? So how do you know your current salary? How do you know your work hours?
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        2y ago

adityaathalyo 2y ago

[flagged]

bartread 2y ago

This is one of the shittiest pieces of behaviour by an employer I've ever read about. Just awful. Whilst this will make the square root of no difference, I don't want to support Mozilla with this sort of behaviour going on, so what do I do for a web browser now? I switched back to Firefox as my main browser some years ago because, well, Google and privacy concerns related to them. What now? Brave is dicey. Opera? SeaMonkey (which I think may nowadays be independent of Mozilla)? The thing is I do a lot of web development so I need a browser that offers an at least decent developer experience on macOS.

ZunarJ5 2y ago
Ladybird
- shafyy 2y ago
  Sure but Ladybird won't be released before Summer 2026...
  - cholantesh 2y ago
    Is the source not available to build a preview today?
    - shafyy 2y ago
      Might be, but I doubt that it is a full-time replacement for a mature browser like Firefox today.
r-w 2y ago
Brave with the shady features switched off. There’s still some privacy burden on the user, but it’s no comparison with Chrome and they’re pushing the envelope on privacy in other aspects. Firefox forks are another option, depending on your reasons for avoiding the original.
- akimbostrawman 2y ago

kwhitefoot 2y ago

In Norway this is flatly illegal and the relevant government department would probably get involved. Here in Norway companies are legally required to make accommodations for people who fall ill in order to keep them working, so the new CEO would definitely be in the wrong regardless of whether such additional flexibility had actually been requested. > B) you can “decline to accept” a demotion?? You probably can't simply decline it but you can certainly argue against it and if necessary sue in the courts depending on what your employment contract says. If he resigns then I think under UK law it is arguable that it is constructive dismissal: "Constructive dismissal Constructive dismissal is when you’re forced to leave your job against your will because of your employer’s conduct. The reasons you leave your job must be serious, for example, they: - do not pay you or suddenly demote you for no reason - force you to accept unreasonable changes to how you work - for example, tell you to work night shifts when your contract is only for day work - let other employees harass or bully you " https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/unfair-and-constructive-dismissal https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/unfair-and-constructive-dismiss...

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago

While evil, it's common corporate practice (in the US) to get rid of new mothers and employees with deteriorating health, largely by looking for or fabricating trivial excuses to justify their termination. Corporate HR departments excel at finding legal excuses to dodge liability.

greatgib 2y ago

For B), in addition with the fact that a company can't reduce your title or compensation as agreed in your employment contract without your agreement, I can easily guess that in this case it was a proposition of change to accommodate for his health condition. That it looks like that he refused as the proposition looks unsolicited.