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Random people in Russia complaining about the inconvenience of not being able to travel to Europe because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine and all around imperia

Random people in Russia complaining about the inconvenience of not being able to travel to Europe because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine and all around imperialism is also an expected effect. It's also telling that the reaction from those affected is to complain that sanctions should be reverted because they both don't work and are inconvenient and a nuisance.

grishka 2y ago
I don't see how "they don't work" and "they are inconvenient" are contradictory statements. They would've been if there were feedback mechanisms that we could use to communicate our point of view the government, but there aren't any, so in the end it's just a punishment for having been born in a wrong place at a wrong time.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  So in the end it's just a punishment for having been born in a wrong place at a wrong time. That's what war is, unfortunately. Millions of people in Ukraine are currently being "punished" for exactly the same offense, only in ways infinitely worse, as I don't need to tell you. There was absolutely no reason the war had to coming into being at all. But now that we're stuck with it, the only effective questions are -- what can be done to hasten its end; provide some level of justice for those affected the worst; and to make it clear to the responsible parties that something like this can never be allowed to happen on European soil ever again? For their own part -- it's not like the Western governments really have any other choice. Even though the sanctions are having a far more limited effect than they initially hoped -- they simply couldn't keep doing business with Russia as usual after what happened in 2022. That's all there is to it. Meaning, they've no choice but to apply the strongest possible sanctions as they might reasonably be able to (for some definition of "reasonable"). It's a cold and calculated strategy - but again, they didn't chose this situation, and that's the moral calculus that they are now forced to adopt in response to the situation that Putin created for them.
  - justsomehnguy 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - chipdart 2y ago
      > I like how you absolve the Western governments of any agency of their own. Cut the crap. Russia's regime decided to start a war of invasion. It's an initiative from Russia and Russia alone, and all consequences are derived from Russia's actions. There is no way around it.
      - justsomehnguy 2y ago
        Ah, yes. Just one day Putin woke up and decided to start it. Nothing before. But you know, the most funny thing here is what you would never say "USA's regime decided to start a war of invasion in Iraq/Afghanistant/Yugoslavia. It's an initiative from US and US alone, and all consequences are derived from US's actions. There is no way around it." Makes me wonder why.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        Actually in the case of Iraq at least, not only do many, many, many people say exactly that -- they were saying so at the time it happened, and not only saying it but marching in the streets, in crowds of hundreds of thousands, and screaming it at the top of their lungs -- in the vain hope that someone might listen. In fact I'll say it right now (minus your jingoistic lingo about the USA's "regime" which really doesn't apply to its government of course): The US government decided to start a war of invasion in Iraq. It's an initiative from the US and the US alone, and all consequences are derived from the US's actions. There is no way around it. There, done. And guess what -- the exact same description applies 100 percent to Putin's invasion of Ukraine. It really was just as voluntary and made-up and evil and stupid as the Iraq invasion. It's an initiative from Russia and Russia alone, and all consequences are derived from Russia's actions. There is no way around it. And (just as with Iraq) anyone can see through the fog, and see the situation for exactly what it is they want to. More fundamentally: you know, the whole "hypocrisy" debate is really quite impotent and useless as applies to these situations, across the board. Much better to focus on why the evil happened, who is responsible and how to stop the evil currently and prevent it from ever happening again.
- chipdart 2y ago
  > I don't see how "they don't work" and "they are inconvenient" are contradictory statements. They would've been if there were feedback mechanisms that we could use to communicate our point of view the government, but there aren't any, so in the end it's just a punishment for having been born in a wrong place at a wrong time. The feedback mechanism you're complaining about is a problem on the side of those being inconvenienced. If they want to complain, they need to direct their complains to their own regime, and address the problems they are causing everyone around them. It's also very telling that the reaction is to complain about mild inconveniences while turning a blind eye to the whole war of aggression, terrorism, and pervasive threats of global Armageddon from their very own government. That, strangely enough, is not an inconvenience nor an issue requiring attention. Tourism seems to be a right to them, but others don't even have a right to exist? Does that warrant any accountability at all, or does the blame lie always elsewhere?
  - grishka 2y ago
    > If they want to complain, they need to direct their complains to their own regime And get arrested and charged with "discrediting the armed forces", right. Must be nice to write all that from the comfort of your Western home.
    - chipdart 2y ago
      > And get arrested and charged with "discrediting the armed forces", right. If you don't register that as a problem but somehow limiting your tourism options is a concern, that is already telling regarding what your priorities are.
      - grishka 2y ago
        I do register that as a problem but it's the same kind of problem as bad weather. Nothing can be done about it.
        chipdart 2y ago
        > I do register that as a problem but it's the same kind of problem as bad weather. Nothing can be done about it. Yes there is. From Europe's side, one of the most basic things that can be done is stop taking in tourists from a nation hell-bent on starting wars of invasion with neighboring countries and threaten the whole world with nuclear Armageddon. Cutting economic ties is also a good strong start. If those hypothetical tourists don't feel strongly about their own nation conducting genocide or bombing hospitals or blowing up damns then perhaps in the very least they should understand that it's something that can negatively affect them too and perhaps, even for the worst possible reasons such as inconveniencing their travel plans, that should not be something they support. And yet here we are, arguing that changes in travel plans are unfair while ignoring a full blown existencial war.
- smurkinson 2y ago
  Do you pay taxes to the russian government? If you do, then you are helping them wage war against europe. Russia is a dictatorship, what are you doing to change that? Just complaining that there isn't anything you can do won't change anything. Why should we in the west go out of our way to not inconvenience you? If you are not resisting the russian government, then you are passively helping them, why would I even consider it negative that sanctions bother you?

grishka 2y ago

I don't see how "they don't work" and "they are inconvenient" are contradictory statements. They would've been if there were feedback mechanisms that we could use to communicate our point of view the government, but there aren't any, so in the end it's just a punishment for having been born in a wrong place at a wrong time.

aguaviva 2y ago
So in the end it's just a punishment for having been born in a wrong place at a wrong time. That's what war is, unfortunately. Millions of people in Ukraine are currently being "punished" for exactly the same offense, only in ways infinitely worse, as I don't need to tell you. There was absolutely no reason the war had to coming into being at all. But now that we're stuck with it, the only effective questions are -- what can be done to hasten its end; provide some level of justice for those affected the worst; and to make it clear to the responsible parties that something like this can never be allowed to happen on European soil ever again? For their own part -- it's not like the Western governments really have any other choice. Even though the sanctions are having a far more limited effect than they initially hoped -- they simply couldn't keep doing business with Russia as usual after what happened in 2022. That's all there is to it. Meaning, they've no choice but to apply the strongest possible sanctions as they might reasonably be able to (for some definition of "reasonable"). It's a cold and calculated strategy - but again, they didn't chose this situation, and that's the moral calculus that they are now forced to adopt in response to the situation that Putin created for them.
- justsomehnguy 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - chipdart 2y ago
    > I like how you absolve the Western governments of any agency of their own. Cut the crap. Russia's regime decided to start a war of invasion. It's an initiative from Russia and Russia alone, and all consequences are derived from Russia's actions. There is no way around it.
    - justsomehnguy 2y ago
      Ah, yes. Just one day Putin woke up and decided to start it. Nothing before. But you know, the most funny thing here is what you would never say "USA's regime decided to start a war of invasion in Iraq/Afghanistant/Yugoslavia. It's an initiative from US and US alone, and all consequences are derived from US's actions. There is no way around it." Makes me wonder why.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        Actually in the case of Iraq at least, not only do many, many, many people say exactly that -- they were saying so at the time it happened, and not only saying it but marching in the streets, in crowds of hundreds of thousands, and screaming it at the top of their lungs -- in the vain hope that someone might listen. In fact I'll say it right now (minus your jingoistic lingo about the USA's "regime" which really doesn't apply to its government of course): The US government decided to start a war of invasion in Iraq. It's an initiative from the US and the US alone, and all consequences are derived from the US's actions. There is no way around it. There, done. And guess what -- the exact same description applies 100 percent to Putin's invasion of Ukraine. It really was just as voluntary and made-up and evil and stupid as the Iraq invasion. It's an initiative from Russia and Russia alone, and all consequences are derived from Russia's actions. There is no way around it. And (just as with Iraq) anyone can see through the fog, and see the situation for exactly what it is they want to. More fundamentally: you know, the whole "hypocrisy" debate is really quite impotent and useless as applies to these situations, across the board. Much better to focus on why the evil happened, who is responsible and how to stop the evil currently and prevent it from ever happening again.
chipdart 2y ago
> I don't see how "they don't work" and "they are inconvenient" are contradictory statements. They would've been if there were feedback mechanisms that we could use to communicate our point of view the government, but there aren't any, so in the end it's just a punishment for having been born in a wrong place at a wrong time. The feedback mechanism you're complaining about is a problem on the side of those being inconvenienced. If they want to complain, they need to direct their complains to their own regime, and address the problems they are causing everyone around them. It's also very telling that the reaction is to complain about mild inconveniences while turning a blind eye to the whole war of aggression, terrorism, and pervasive threats of global Armageddon from their very own government. That, strangely enough, is not an inconvenience nor an issue requiring attention. Tourism seems to be a right to them, but others don't even have a right to exist? Does that warrant any accountability at all, or does the blame lie always elsewhere?
- grishka 2y ago
  > If they want to complain, they need to direct their complains to their own regime And get arrested and charged with "discrediting the armed forces", right. Must be nice to write all that from the comfort of your Western home.
  - chipdart 2y ago
    > And get arrested and charged with "discrediting the armed forces", right. If you don't register that as a problem but somehow limiting your tourism options is a concern, that is already telling regarding what your priorities are.
    - grishka 2y ago
      I do register that as a problem but it's the same kind of problem as bad weather. Nothing can be done about it.
      - chipdart 2y ago
        > I do register that as a problem but it's the same kind of problem as bad weather. Nothing can be done about it. Yes there is. From Europe's side, one of the most basic things that can be done is stop taking in tourists from a nation hell-bent on starting wars of invasion with neighboring countries and threaten the whole world with nuclear Armageddon. Cutting economic ties is also a good strong start. If those hypothetical tourists don't feel strongly about their own nation conducting genocide or bombing hospitals or blowing up damns then perhaps in the very least they should understand that it's something that can negatively affect them too and perhaps, even for the worst possible reasons such as inconveniencing their travel plans, that should not be something they support. And yet here we are, arguing that changes in travel plans are unfair while ignoring a full blown existencial war.
smurkinson 2y ago
Do you pay taxes to the russian government? If you do, then you are helping them wage war against europe. Russia is a dictatorship, what are you doing to change that? Just complaining that there isn't anything you can do won't change anything. Why should we in the west go out of our way to not inconvenience you? If you are not resisting the russian government, then you are passively helping them, why would I even consider it negative that sanctions bother you?