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> In my own opinion, a good step in the right direction would be if we could travel to European countries as easily as we used to be able to. I don't agree. Ru

> In my own opinion, a good step in the right direction would be if we could travel to European countries as easily as we used to be able to. I don't agree. Russia's regime threatens Europe with invasion and nuclear bombs almost on a daily basis, and vilify everyone who doesn't enthusiastically support their invasion of Ukraine. A few years ago Russia even had a nuclear bomber circling the coast of western Europe. This behavior is not limited to government. It's not unheard of having Russian tourists insulting and threatening locals. In Europe or in any corner of the world. There are also Russian citizens attacking refugees and asylum seekers in foreign soil, even Russia's own war dodgers. You cannot expect to systematically threat neighbors and still demand or even expect them to continue to cater to the whims of the agressor. It is a voluntary relationship that cuts both ways. When you start a war, you should expect to experience war.

voidr 2y ago
[flagged]
- grishka 2y ago
  Yeah sometimes Chinese tourists are also annoying here. So what? I feel like every country has these kinds of stereotypes about foreign tourists. I always treat everyone with respect by default and expect the same from others.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  European here, Russia is not threatening anyone here, not sure who told you that nonsense. Since 2014, Russia (that is, its government) has: - Shot down a passenger jet departing from Amsterdam, murdering 298 persons (including 211 citizens from European countries) - Carried out (or attempted) targeted killings in the UK, Germany and Spain - Blown up a Czech munitions plant, poisoned a Bulgarian arms dealer - Organized sabotage acts against Poland - Abducted an Estonian security officer at gunpoint inside Estonian territory, and dragged him across the border - Engaged in numerous maritime and border provocations, especially against the Sweden and the Baltic states - Issued numerous menacing and/or provocative statements against Poland and the Baltic states (e.g. reminding Poland that its borders were "a gift from Stalin") - And just the other day, Medvedev literally threatened to nuke Kyiv (saying it could turn into "a big grey lump") It's plenty obvious you don't care about Ukraine (since you seem to have forgotten that it's part of Europe, also), but I'm pretty sure you understand that a nuclear attack on Kyiv would have certain decidedly negative effects on the rest of Europe as well.
  - grishka 2y ago
    We're not talking about the government here. We're talking about regular people.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Both the parent and grandparent were talking primarily about the Russian government, not regular people. (The parent also went on an annoying stupid tangent about Russian tourists, but their main point was about Russian government's repeated threats to basically start an all-out nuclear war if its latest colonial project is not allowed to succeed, including Medvedev's not so subtle threat from just the other day).
    - sam_lowry_ 2y ago
      Regular people create value that makes the war possible and pay taxes that finance the war.
  - voidr 2y ago
    [flagged]
- chipdart 2y ago
  > European here, Russia is not threatening anyone here, not sure who told you that nonsense. I call bullshit. European here. Even if somehow you somehow ignore Georgia or Ukraine, and turn a blind eye to the baltic nations and pretend that Poland doesn't exist, for decades we can't go a single month without Russia throwing any veiled and not so veiled threat. Either tanks in Berlin in x days, tanks in Lisbon in x weeks, sinking Britain with nuclear tsunamis, etc etc etc. And I'm not even touching on the terrorist and sabotage campaigns. You need to be wilful ignorant to pretend Russia hasn't been threatening everyone left of right for decades.
  - voidr 2y ago
    Yeah, no superpower would ever be bothered by another superpower wanting to put bases and missiles next to them.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
    - chipdart 2y ago
      > Yeah, no superpower (...) Bullshit. Finland joined NATO and if anything Russia pulled out their military presence near the border. Even Putin himself debunked the nonsense tall tale about NATO expansion. Are we expected to keep pretending this is a concern?
      - voidr 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Except there were no missiles in Ukraine, nor any plans to put them there. And Ukraine's NATO membership application was rejected, by NATO, 16 years ago. Your analogy holds no water whatsoever.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
47282847 2y ago
Russians didn’t start a war. They are not the agressor. The ruling powers of Russia did. You are saying that it’s good to punish those already affected by their governments violence additionally. And with that unfortunate perspective, you will not win the population over, to the contrary. The anger is justified, but misdirected. Would every US American be happy to be identified as Trump and Project2025 supporter, in case he wins the elections? How much is it my responsibility what my government does, if all I have is basically one vote, if even that, and it is life threatening to even voice (and form) my opinion?
- chipdart 2y ago
  > Russians didn’t start a war. That's industrial-grade gaslighting. A regime doesn't simply start an invasion. It's not even the first one in recent years, too. Russia's regime decided to invade Ukraine in 2014, and make it a full blown military invasion in 2022. You can't weasel-word your way around that.
  - 47282847 2y ago
    How does that contradict what I said? You conflate Russian government and rulers (the „Russian regime“), and the population who happen to live or originate from there with no say in any of it („Russians“), all into one. That creates confusion and misunderstandings. You are making it appear as if it’s right and just to punish the population, and support their regime in isolating them from the world. Also, you may want to look at the definition of „gaslighting“, where you create another confusion by applying it to this context.
    - mopsi 2y ago
      I think he mistook your "Russia didn't start the war" as an attempt to blame Ukraine, whereas you were trying do distance population from the government. Nevertheless, that's wrong. The population overwhelmingly supports the war: https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/3.png https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/3.png The support is surprisingly uniform across age groups and urban/rural divide: https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/4.png https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/4.png
meiraleal 2y ago
> It's not unheard of having Russian tourists insulting and threatening locals. In Europe or in any corner of the world. I live in one of the most touristic cities in the world (Rio de Janeiro) and after meeting hundreds of Russians, that's the first time I hear about it.

voidr 2y ago

[flagged]

grishka 2y ago
Yeah sometimes Chinese tourists are also annoying here. So what? I feel like every country has these kinds of stereotypes about foreign tourists. I always treat everyone with respect by default and expect the same from others.
aguaviva 2y ago
European here, Russia is not threatening anyone here, not sure who told you that nonsense. Since 2014, Russia (that is, its government) has: - Shot down a passenger jet departing from Amsterdam, murdering 298 persons (including 211 citizens from European countries) - Carried out (or attempted) targeted killings in the UK, Germany and Spain - Blown up a Czech munitions plant, poisoned a Bulgarian arms dealer - Organized sabotage acts against Poland - Abducted an Estonian security officer at gunpoint inside Estonian territory, and dragged him across the border - Engaged in numerous maritime and border provocations, especially against the Sweden and the Baltic states - Issued numerous menacing and/or provocative statements against Poland and the Baltic states (e.g. reminding Poland that its borders were "a gift from Stalin") - And just the other day, Medvedev literally threatened to nuke Kyiv (saying it could turn into "a big grey lump") It's plenty obvious you don't care about Ukraine (since you seem to have forgotten that it's part of Europe, also), but I'm pretty sure you understand that a nuclear attack on Kyiv would have certain decidedly negative effects on the rest of Europe as well.
- grishka 2y ago
  We're not talking about the government here. We're talking about regular people.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Both the parent and grandparent were talking primarily about the Russian government, not regular people. (The parent also went on an annoying stupid tangent about Russian tourists, but their main point was about Russian government's repeated threats to basically start an all-out nuclear war if its latest colonial project is not allowed to succeed, including Medvedev's not so subtle threat from just the other day).
  - sam_lowry_ 2y ago
    Regular people create value that makes the war possible and pay taxes that finance the war.
- voidr 2y ago
  [flagged]
chipdart 2y ago
> European here, Russia is not threatening anyone here, not sure who told you that nonsense. I call bullshit. European here. Even if somehow you somehow ignore Georgia or Ukraine, and turn a blind eye to the baltic nations and pretend that Poland doesn't exist, for decades we can't go a single month without Russia throwing any veiled and not so veiled threat. Either tanks in Berlin in x days, tanks in Lisbon in x weeks, sinking Britain with nuclear tsunamis, etc etc etc. And I'm not even touching on the terrorist and sabotage campaigns. You need to be wilful ignorant to pretend Russia hasn't been threatening everyone left of right for decades.
- voidr 2y ago
  Yeah, no superpower would ever be bothered by another superpower wanting to put bases and missiles next to them.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
  - chipdart 2y ago
    > Yeah, no superpower (...) Bullshit. Finland joined NATO and if anything Russia pulled out their military presence near the border. Even Putin himself debunked the nonsense tall tale about NATO expansion. Are we expected to keep pretending this is a concern?
    - voidr 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Except there were no missiles in Ukraine, nor any plans to put them there. And Ukraine's NATO membership application was rejected, by NATO, 16 years ago. Your analogy holds no water whatsoever.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

47282847 2y ago

Russians didn’t start a war. They are not the agressor. The ruling powers of Russia did. You are saying that it’s good to punish those already affected by their governments violence additionally. And with that unfortunate perspective, you will not win the population over, to the contrary. The anger is justified, but misdirected. Would every US American be happy to be identified as Trump and Project2025 supporter, in case he wins the elections? How much is it my responsibility what my government does, if all I have is basically one vote, if even that, and it is life threatening to even voice (and form) my opinion?

chipdart 2y ago
> Russians didn’t start a war. That's industrial-grade gaslighting. A regime doesn't simply start an invasion. It's not even the first one in recent years, too. Russia's regime decided to invade Ukraine in 2014, and make it a full blown military invasion in 2022. You can't weasel-word your way around that.
- 47282847 2y ago
  How does that contradict what I said? You conflate Russian government and rulers (the „Russian regime“), and the population who happen to live or originate from there with no say in any of it („Russians“), all into one. That creates confusion and misunderstandings. You are making it appear as if it’s right and just to punish the population, and support their regime in isolating them from the world. Also, you may want to look at the definition of „gaslighting“, where you create another confusion by applying it to this context.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    I think he mistook your "Russia didn't start the war" as an attempt to blame Ukraine, whereas you were trying do distance population from the government. Nevertheless, that's wrong. The population overwhelmingly supports the war: https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/3.png https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/3.png The support is surprisingly uniform across age groups and urban/rural divide: https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/4.png https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/4.png

meiraleal 2y ago

> It's not unheard of having Russian tourists insulting and threatening locals. In Europe or in any corner of the world. I live in one of the most touristic cities in the world (Rio de Janeiro) and after meeting hundreds of Russians, that's the first time I hear about it.