6 ms·

We had some visitors to California from out of state recently, and the rental car place gave them an electric car (not Tesla), without basically any education a

We had some visitors to California from out of state recently, and the rental car place gave them an electric car (not Tesla), without basically any education about how to deal with them. I'm a huge fan of electric cars, and will probably never buy anything except EVs in the future, but man are you right that the non-Tesla experience is bleak. Charging was incredibly stressful. Few CCS chargers, each with a tiny number of charging spots (4-8), with many chargers broken, and the rest fully occupied. I know it will get better, but I can't believe how bad it is at the moment, and can't believe that car rental companies are handing EVs out without much much more handholding. (Edit: plus, the car navigation system had zero knowledge of how to plan a long route with charging. That's table stakes for an EV, and criminally bad management that they'd ship a car that didn't have full knowledge of the chargers out there and also how to route. Traditional US car manufacturers are absolutely incompetent and will not survive competition with Chinese manufacturers unless they clean house on everything software related.)

jahewson 2y ago
It’s shocking. I’ve had a non-Tesla electric car for about 5 years and the public chargers have always been garbage. The new ones are garbage too. If they do finally work, they charge at 1/4 the quoted speed. I had free charging for a while and even that was not enough of an incentive to use it.
- short_sells_poo 2y ago
  Same experience in the UK. Just within London you have a dozen charging networks, they all have their own shitty apps, they require you to add your credit card and create an account and half the time they simply don't work and just give you some garbage error message like "charging failed". Don't even get me started on Oxford. We arrive to a charging station and it turns out it is exclusively for electric taxis. No mention of this anywhere online. It boils down to trial and error, and then remembering which specific charging points tend to work. For a completely new piece of infrastructure with no legacy cruft, the industry has made a complete and utter mess of it.
  - mavhc 2y ago
    90% of the ones I use have a card reader, and not found one that doesn't work in the past 2 years, of course I'll check on zapmap comments first
  - zelos 2y ago
    Most UK chargers are on Electroverse now I think?
- tirant 2y ago
  Interestingly it is a very different situation in Germany and other surrounding countries. I've been driving electric since 2022 (non-tesla) and I have never charged with a tesla Supercharger. They have been either more expensive than my contract or in locations far way from the highway or gas stations. The situation in Germany right now is extremely good, almost every gas station by the Autobahns has 150KW+ chargers available (and most of them non-Tesla). No need to plan stops anymore. And at the moment Plug-and-Charge is also working in Ionity and other stations. My BMW is able to store several contracts and I can choose beforehand which ones to use without having to resort to any app or RFID cards. Charging is now as easy as with Tesla, but with full market competition and many extra locations.
- vel0city 2y ago
  I've had a non-Tesla for three years now. I've never had a single problem charging at a public DC fast charger. Every time I've managed to find an open and working stall. Every time it worked either with plug and charge or took credit cards on the dispenser. My car isn't 800v so it doesn't do the full 350kW but it has always been about the speeds my car can charge at. I'm in North Texas and have mostly encountered chargers in Texas. I can't speak to charging elsewhere. > If they do finally work, they charge at 1/4 the quoted speed Just to confirm, 1/4 of the quoted average charging speed of your car, 1/4 the quoted peak charging speed of your car, or 1/4 the max supported speed of the charger? Few cars can actually charge at the 350kW max charge rate available. And then on top of that those cars don't actually sustain that peak rate very long, and only when it's been preconditioned and already at a low state of charge. If you're rolling in at 50-60% SoC and especially if you didn't precondition you probably are looking at only being able to charge 100kW or so. That's not the fault of the charger. Teslas don't charge at 250kW the entire time either. They too have charge curves and need preconditioning to hit max charge rates.
jessriedel 2y ago
> Traditional US car manufacturers are absolutely incompetent and will not survive competition with Chinese manufacturers unless they clean house on everything software related. Legacy American car companies have been fully non-competitive with foreign brands for decades. Their continued existence is completely due to tariffs, and it’s not close. I see no reason to think congress would suddenly allow them to be threatened by Chinese companies.
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  Moreover it's not clear how long china will be able to continue subsidizing the electric cars the way they do.
  - reaperman 2y ago
    More subsidies than the $7,500 per vehicle subsidy that the US government gives for our EV vehicles?
    - ywvcbk 2y ago
      To be fair you can’t really use this type of subsidy for price dumping in foreign markets like China is doing in Europe and would love to do as well in the US.
    - nxm 2y ago
      Wages and hence manufacturing costs are higher in the US
  - yosefk 2y ago
    are you sure they are subsidizing them and not simply producing them more cheaply?
    - iamacyborg 2y ago
      China are subsidising the entire supply chain. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_3231 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_...
reaperman 2y ago
> Traditional US car manufacturers are absolutely incompetent and will not survive competition with Chinese manufacturers Oh they won't have any trouble. They may lose international market share but the US government will keep raising tariffs ad infinitum to protect the US automakers no matter how far behind they get, or how expensive the vehicles get. We already are giving them 100% tariffs against BYD/etc. You might think that's absurd but the steel industry has received tariffs up to 266% against Chinese steel, so there's a lot of headroom left to continue to price out international competition. There's really no pressure for the US automakers to do better or innovate or actually compete.
- ywvcbk 2y ago
  Chinese companies can do the same thing Toyota and a bunch of other European and Japanese brands did. Open factories in NA and make their cars here. If the US companies are so incompetent they should still be able to outcompete them while paying several times higher wages and not getting any subsidies from the CCP.
- corimaith 2y ago
  Everybody (including outside the West) is raising tariffs against Chinese steel.
badgersnake 2y ago
Hertz walked back their big bet on EVs. They don’t make good rental cars. For day to day use where you can charge at home or go to places you know they are great. For long trips to unfamiliar places, not so much.

jahewson 2y ago

It’s shocking. I’ve had a non-Tesla electric car for about 5 years and the public chargers have always been garbage. The new ones are garbage too. If they do finally work, they charge at 1/4 the quoted speed. I had free charging for a while and even that was not enough of an incentive to use it.

short_sells_poo 2y ago
Same experience in the UK. Just within London you have a dozen charging networks, they all have their own shitty apps, they require you to add your credit card and create an account and half the time they simply don't work and just give you some garbage error message like "charging failed". Don't even get me started on Oxford. We arrive to a charging station and it turns out it is exclusively for electric taxis. No mention of this anywhere online. It boils down to trial and error, and then remembering which specific charging points tend to work. For a completely new piece of infrastructure with no legacy cruft, the industry has made a complete and utter mess of it.
- mavhc 2y ago
  90% of the ones I use have a card reader, and not found one that doesn't work in the past 2 years, of course I'll check on zapmap comments first
- zelos 2y ago
  Most UK chargers are on Electroverse now I think?
tirant 2y ago
Interestingly it is a very different situation in Germany and other surrounding countries. I've been driving electric since 2022 (non-tesla) and I have never charged with a tesla Supercharger. They have been either more expensive than my contract or in locations far way from the highway or gas stations. The situation in Germany right now is extremely good, almost every gas station by the Autobahns has 150KW+ chargers available (and most of them non-Tesla). No need to plan stops anymore. And at the moment Plug-and-Charge is also working in Ionity and other stations. My BMW is able to store several contracts and I can choose beforehand which ones to use without having to resort to any app or RFID cards. Charging is now as easy as with Tesla, but with full market competition and many extra locations.
vel0city 2y ago
I've had a non-Tesla for three years now. I've never had a single problem charging at a public DC fast charger. Every time I've managed to find an open and working stall. Every time it worked either with plug and charge or took credit cards on the dispenser. My car isn't 800v so it doesn't do the full 350kW but it has always been about the speeds my car can charge at. I'm in North Texas and have mostly encountered chargers in Texas. I can't speak to charging elsewhere. > If they do finally work, they charge at 1/4 the quoted speed Just to confirm, 1/4 of the quoted average charging speed of your car, 1/4 the quoted peak charging speed of your car, or 1/4 the max supported speed of the charger? Few cars can actually charge at the 350kW max charge rate available. And then on top of that those cars don't actually sustain that peak rate very long, and only when it's been preconditioned and already at a low state of charge. If you're rolling in at 50-60% SoC and especially if you didn't precondition you probably are looking at only being able to charge 100kW or so. That's not the fault of the charger. Teslas don't charge at 250kW the entire time either. They too have charge curves and need preconditioning to hit max charge rates.

jessriedel 2y ago

> Traditional US car manufacturers are absolutely incompetent and will not survive competition with Chinese manufacturers unless they clean house on everything software related. Legacy American car companies have been fully non-competitive with foreign brands for decades. Their continued existence is completely due to tariffs, and it’s not close. I see no reason to think congress would suddenly allow them to be threatened by Chinese companies.

throwawaymaths 2y ago
Moreover it's not clear how long china will be able to continue subsidizing the electric cars the way they do.
- reaperman 2y ago
  More subsidies than the $7,500 per vehicle subsidy that the US government gives for our EV vehicles?
  - ywvcbk 2y ago
    To be fair you can’t really use this type of subsidy for price dumping in foreign markets like China is doing in Europe and would love to do as well in the US.
  - nxm 2y ago
    Wages and hence manufacturing costs are higher in the US
- yosefk 2y ago
  are you sure they are subsidizing them and not simply producing them more cheaply?
  - iamacyborg 2y ago
    China are subsidising the entire supply chain. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_3231 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_...

reaperman 2y ago

> Traditional US car manufacturers are absolutely incompetent and will not survive competition with Chinese manufacturers Oh they won't have any trouble. They may lose international market share but the US government will keep raising tariffs ad infinitum to protect the US automakers no matter how far behind they get, or how expensive the vehicles get. We already are giving them 100% tariffs against BYD/etc. You might think that's absurd but the steel industry has received tariffs up to 266% against Chinese steel, so there's a lot of headroom left to continue to price out international competition. There's really no pressure for the US automakers to do better or innovate or actually compete.

ywvcbk 2y ago
Chinese companies can do the same thing Toyota and a bunch of other European and Japanese brands did. Open factories in NA and make their cars here. If the US companies are so incompetent they should still be able to outcompete them while paying several times higher wages and not getting any subsidies from the CCP.
corimaith 2y ago
Everybody (including outside the West) is raising tariffs against Chinese steel.

badgersnake 2y ago

Hertz walked back their big bet on EVs. They don’t make good rental cars. For day to day use where you can charge at home or go to places you know they are great. For long trips to unfamiliar places, not so much.