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Public schools successfully teach most Americans to read and do basic math. Being able to read and do math is all you need to navigate the greater part of moder

Public schools successfully teach most Americans to read and do basic math. Being able to read and do math is all you need to navigate the greater part of modern society. Putting 15 year olds into a personal finance or home economics class can be productive, but we can't expect high school to teach you what to do in every possible scenario you'll encounter in life. At some point you're going to have to read and do a little bit of math.

ghaff 2y ago
I'm certainly not opposed to having a home economics class even in a college prep curriculum. Throw in some stats while you're at it and maybe some cooking lessons. But that doesn't stop people from being greedy and stupid like a lot of the tech folks during the past couple decades or so. Yeah, some won big, but so do some people who play the lottery every week. And sometimes it even makes sense to roll the dice a bit.
PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
Pretending that successfully managing investments during 40+ years of working life so as to provide a reasonably comfortable requirement just requires "a little bit of math" is disingenuous in the extreme.
- datavirtue 2y ago
  This.
- missedthecue 2y ago
  It is not disingenuous and it really doesn't even require much math. Buying target date and index funds is remarkably straightforward in 2024. Know how and where to buy them takes about an evening of reading. I know because that's how I did it. I did not have a home ec class, I did not have someone to show me how, and I am not that great at math.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    I have also done this. But ... my wife, who is perfectly capable of basic math, would never have been able to do this task, nor would she have wanted to, and in the past she was exploited by financial advisers seeking to do it for her. I have no doubt that some people with weak/average math skills can do this, mostly because the math skills have nothing to do with it, really. Confidence about how to invest and manage your life savings is an entirely different thing, and since we don't teach people anything about this, many, many people do not have it.
    - missedthecue 2y ago
      I think in the end we are agreeing here. The big problem is that it's opt-in. Making this mandatory like Australia and Singapore solves the biggest problems of apathy or simply being unaware. Social security for example only works because it's mandatory. I think having some percent of your check go into index funds automatically would work too.
      - ghaff 2y ago
        We have social security in the US. If you think people should be putting more money in so they mostly automatically get more money out after they retire that's "just" a political problem. Setting up a parallel mandatory system just seems like an unnecessary complication. There's nothing especially magical about 401ks. Yes, many companies match contributions up to some level. And there are some tax benefits but it's mostly about saving for retirement. It's not like defined benefit plans were anything like universal in the US--mostly big companies for employees with relatively long tenures.
        missedthecue 2y ago
        The thing that makes 401ks magical compared to social security is decades of compound interest. The average social security payment is only $1700 a month. Not enough to live on, yet the program is almost unaffordable.
whartung 2y ago
Knowing basic math, and applying it are two different things. The financial markets are vastly complicated. If you have exposure simply to arithmetic and not how it is applied to financial instruments, you are ill equipped. Better to teach the basic financial instruments (Checking accounts, fees, overdraft, Credit Cards, Home Mortgages, Retirement accounts, bond and index funds, and simple allocation), and just the math necessary to understand the fundamentals. You can go a lot farther I think with the 3 R's and a solid home economics class than even things like Algebra, or higher math. And, if nothing else, teach these people that if your employer matches, fund AT least that much. That's just free money, and you can't get a better return on your money out of the gate than that unless you're lucky at the sports book (ill-advised...). Vanguard should be publishing ready to go lesson plans for this and giving them gratis to every high school in the nation.

ghaff 2y ago

I'm certainly not opposed to having a home economics class even in a college prep curriculum. Throw in some stats while you're at it and maybe some cooking lessons. But that doesn't stop people from being greedy and stupid like a lot of the tech folks during the past couple decades or so. Yeah, some won big, but so do some people who play the lottery every week. And sometimes it even makes sense to roll the dice a bit.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago

Pretending that successfully managing investments during 40+ years of working life so as to provide a reasonably comfortable requirement just requires "a little bit of math" is disingenuous in the extreme.

datavirtue 2y ago
This.
missedthecue 2y ago
It is not disingenuous and it really doesn't even require much math. Buying target date and index funds is remarkably straightforward in 2024. Know how and where to buy them takes about an evening of reading. I know because that's how I did it. I did not have a home ec class, I did not have someone to show me how, and I am not that great at math.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  I have also done this. But ... my wife, who is perfectly capable of basic math, would never have been able to do this task, nor would she have wanted to, and in the past she was exploited by financial advisers seeking to do it for her. I have no doubt that some people with weak/average math skills can do this, mostly because the math skills have nothing to do with it, really. Confidence about how to invest and manage your life savings is an entirely different thing, and since we don't teach people anything about this, many, many people do not have it.
  - missedthecue 2y ago
    I think in the end we are agreeing here. The big problem is that it's opt-in. Making this mandatory like Australia and Singapore solves the biggest problems of apathy or simply being unaware. Social security for example only works because it's mandatory. I think having some percent of your check go into index funds automatically would work too.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      We have social security in the US. If you think people should be putting more money in so they mostly automatically get more money out after they retire that's "just" a political problem. Setting up a parallel mandatory system just seems like an unnecessary complication. There's nothing especially magical about 401ks. Yes, many companies match contributions up to some level. And there are some tax benefits but it's mostly about saving for retirement. It's not like defined benefit plans were anything like universal in the US--mostly big companies for employees with relatively long tenures.
      - missedthecue 2y ago
        The thing that makes 401ks magical compared to social security is decades of compound interest. The average social security payment is only $1700 a month. Not enough to live on, yet the program is almost unaffordable.

whartung 2y ago

Knowing basic math, and applying it are two different things. The financial markets are vastly complicated. If you have exposure simply to arithmetic and not how it is applied to financial instruments, you are ill equipped. Better to teach the basic financial instruments (Checking accounts, fees, overdraft, Credit Cards, Home Mortgages, Retirement accounts, bond and index funds, and simple allocation), and just the math necessary to understand the fundamentals. You can go a lot farther I think with the 3 R's and a solid home economics class than even things like Algebra, or higher math. And, if nothing else, teach these people that if your employer matches, fund AT least that much. That's just free money, and you can't get a better return on your money out of the gate than that unless you're lucky at the sports book (ill-advised...). Vanguard should be publishing ready to go lesson plans for this and giving them gratis to every high school in the nation.