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> legitimate military targets during a time of war Israel and Lebanon are not at war.
by 113 2y ago
> legitimate military targets during a time of war
Israel and Lebanon are not at war.
- lelanthran 2y ago> Israel and Lebanon are not at war. Maybe not, but the combatants holding those devices were at war, no?
- shprd 2y ago> but the combatants holding those devices were at war, no? The attack wasn't as targeted as you seem to think. It also hit health workers and bystanders. Approx half the casualties are civilians (including children). According to Humans rights watch: https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/09/18/lebanon-exploding-pagers-harmed-hezbollah-civilians https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/09/18/lebanon-exploding-pagers... > Thousands of pagers simultaneously exploded across Lebanon and parts of Syria on September 17, 2024, resulting in at least 12 deaths, including at least two children and two health workers, and at least 2,800 injuries, according to Lebanon’s Ministry of Health.
- lelanthran 2y ago> Approx half the casualties are civilians Citation needed for that. None of the news reports, even the heavily biased ones, have reported mass civilian casualties.
- bordercases 2y agoHow many children do you expect to be combatants?
- shprd 2y agoThe citation, as requested: "two children and four health workers in a hospital in southern Beirut were among the 12 people who were killed on Tuesday." - Public Health Minister Firas Abiad in a press conference So that's 50% of those killed, right? and that's just health workers and children (who were 8 and 11 years old, btw). Also, there were multiple footage of the devices exploding among civilians in dense markets and grocery stores, so the percentage of civilians injured might be even higher. I expect more detailed reports will be shared over the next few days about the total casualty.
- dsauerbrun 2y agocasualties refers to injuries as well as deaths. I think the citation they were looking for was for the ~2800 number. I don't think it's reasonable to say that 6/12 killed were civilians, so half of all casualties were civilian. We dont know until we get more reports, like you said, it could be higher... but it could also be lower.
- zeroimpl 2y agoThis is a dumb position though because all logic would suggest the two ratios are proportional. Civilians are not significantly more likely to die of their injuries than non-civilians. While 12 is a bit of a small sample, it's not unreasonably small to make extrapolations.
- TwentyPosts 2y agoApart from the issue where this ignores how many people got injured (a much larger number), there's a very simple "survival bias" reason (ironically) why this argument doesn't work. Children (and potentially health workers, as opposed to men of fighting age) are much more likely to die of such an explosion than men of fighting age. In other words, children will be significantly overrepresented here.
- tga_d 2y agoTo just back up for a moment, your argument is that an attack that turned enemy combatants into unwitting suicide bombers in civilian areas with children doesn't qualify as terrorism, because children are easy to kill? Would you hold this opinion if it was an operation by Taliban fighters on US soldiers at home on leave?
- shprd 2y agoSorry to burst you theory: 1. Hezbollah only mourned 10 out of the 26 killed so far, claiming them as members (one of them being a medic). So the 50% seems to still hold, even leaving some room for malice and mistakes. 2. Most of the explosion incidents and injuries are coming from residential areas in Beirut so statistically the percentage of civilians injured as "collateral damage" is likely high considering many of those carrying these devices were going about their life, either with family or in public places at the time.
- IOT_Apprentice 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- tveita 2y agoThat still looks like a more targeted approach than "precise strikes" on schools and humanitarian zones like in https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyx9znxl4eo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyx9znxl4eo
- golergka 2y ago[flagged]
- edanm 2y agoBut Israel and Hezbollah are at war, and these are (reportedly) devices used by Hezbollah operatives. A war Hezbollah declared, btw.
- pvaldes 2y ago[flagged]
- edanm 2y agoThe reports say that these devices were specifically part of shipments that went specifically to Hezbollah. Which makes sense - I don't think the US Army is using the same walkies that a random hospital in the US uses, for example.
- pvaldes 2y agoFortunately reports never would lie
- wordofx 2y agoThey are also networked.
- pdabbadabba 2y agoUnfortunately, I don't know that we can know that there is such a clear distinction. Hezbollah also provides many other governmental services, so I don't think we can totally rule out the possibility that, e.g., ambulances could be driven by Hezbollah members who use these radios.
- tshaddox 2y agoThe U.S. military also provides humanitarian aid in the U.S.
- pdabbadabba 2y agoYes. But my sense is that the line between Hezbollah's activities and normal government functions is much blurrier in Lebanon.
- alephnerd 2y ago> Israel and Lebanon are not at war Hezbollah is not Lebanon. Lebanon is not Hezbollah. That said, Hezbollah and Israel have been in active bloody combat against each other since 1985.
- charbroiled 2y agoWell, there’s been a (tense) ceasefire for nearly the last 20 years, that was eventually broken on October 8 by Hezbollah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1701 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Counci...
- alephnerd 2y ago> there’s been a (tense) ceasefire for nearly the last 20 years True, but much of that was spent by Hezbollah fighting in the Syrian Civil War on behalf of Assad (their historical benefactor in Israel). Now that the civil war is de facto over with Assad in control of most of the country except rump Turkish and de facto Israeli (Jabal al Deize) exclusion zones, Hezbollah returned to antagonizing Israel. The Israel-Hezbollah conflict was bound to happen even if 10/7 didn't happen.
- anigbrowl 2y agoThe Israeli defense minister, Yoav Gallant, describes it as such. I imagine if pressed he'd argue that Israel is attacking Hezbollah and not Lebanon, but given the extreme civil dysfunction in Lebanon it's equally arguable that Hezbollah is the de facto government for a lot of the country. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-explosives-hezbollahs-taiwan-made-pagers-say-sources-2024-09-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-exp...
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y agoIts not, but Hezbollah is in control of the hot border in the south. Its a govt within a govt.
- raxxorraxor 2y agoHezbollah doesn't speak for all of Lebanon but it certainly is at war with Israel. Permanently for that matter because it exists to attack Israel.