16 ms·

It isn't legally possible to "just" take a pension away. However, it is not economically possible to deliver defined benefits into an uncertain future. The co

by jerf 2y ago

It isn't legally possible to "just" take a pension away. However, it is not economically possible to deliver defined benefits into an uncertain future. The collision of the unstoppable force of law and the immovable rock of economic reality creates a great deal of excitement and uncertainty. Also rather a lot of those "heat and not much light" arguments, as people speaking in one of those two frames argue with someone else in the other and they end up talking right past each other.

_DeadFred_ 2y ago
I agree with your point that delivering on this is an impossibility for business, which inherently means it's an even bigger impossibility for individuals (if a huge corporation can't figure it out, Bob working on the line definitely can't) and should therefore be moved to the government as the other option (Logan's running everyone) is going to be a really hard sell.
- jerf 2y ago
  Government can't do it either. Defined benefit is impossible for everyone. "Government" should be understood as a general term, not just "The US government" or whatever Western country you may live in. How many governments have fallen in the past 20 years? Probably more than you may realize. How sure are you that "the government" you live under will be there in 30 years? There's an awful lot of stress in the world right now. And I'm not even talking about governments providing pensions, I'm talking about the fact you can't even count on them to exist. They still can't provide the impossible after that and promise absolutely defined benefits. Although this is a non-trivial part of why defined benefit is impossible for any entity to provide, because no entity can provide 100% reassurance it's going to be there in 40-50 years. None. Not government, not an individual, not a foundation, not a company, none. There is no way to put an obligation on future humans that the future humans can not do some combination of repudiation or simply failing to be able to meet them. It is already looking to me very likely that if the US does have continuity up until my retirement, still ~20 years away, that while it may nominally provide all the "dollars" it promises I will receive, that those dollars will be not worth very much. There's more than one way to fail to make good on promises and confusing people about "give me $20 today and I'll give you $50 in 40 years" is one that still gets almost everyone... that sounds fantastic to most people and it's actually terrible, if the government also controls what dollars are worth.
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    Society might collapse so we can't feed old people is a heck of a take. The government controls what the dollars are worth no matter what. You provide no solution only doom and gloom. Maybe go for a hike in the woods. Either we figure something out or we go back to old people eating scraps out of trash cans like they did before we established social security. If a society can't progress and get rid of at the very least scarcity of food for old people during the most unprecedented growth of productivity in the history of the planet, what is the point of that society?
    - jerf 2y ago
      You are misreading a descriptive take with a normative take. The problem is that defined benefit plans are not possible. If you actually care about old people, rather than caring about scoring internet points yelling at people online, then the correct solution is to understand the problem, and start dealing with it. The "yell at anyone explaining that defined benefits plans are impossible and then give out defined benefits plans anyhow" is what is and will continue to hurt people. It's not people like me hurting people, it's people like you who insist on living in fantasy because my gosh isn't the fantasy nicer than the reality.
whartung 2y ago
> It isn't legally possible to "just" take a pension away. Is that true? I simply point out the common TV trope of police officers, essentially, "trapped" waiting to, I guess, vest and get their pensions. They seem to use it a lot as a discipline incentive, for example. "Don't do that Hank, or you'll lose your pension!" etc. But I know my mother got a pension working for a company for only a few years, so I don't know how that all works. "It depends" I'm sure.
- jerf 2y ago
  "just", complete with scarequotes, is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that phrase. Once it is obtained you can't "just" take it away, legally. That doesn't mean there's no way to do it or that there's no legal way to do it, it's just not something you can "just" do. And it's not just legal. The solution to the US's debt problem isn't that you "just" stop paying Medicare and Social Security, because that causes its own problems. From a sufficiently cynical point of view, but one that still carries rather a lot of truth, Medicare and Social Security are payoffs for certain portions of the population to not riot, or induce other parts of the population to riot. The government can't "just" stop paying them.

by jerf 2y ago

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

I agree with your point that delivering on this is an impossibility for business, which inherently means it's an even bigger impossibility for individuals (if a huge corporation can't figure it out, Bob working on the line definitely can't) and should therefore be moved to the government as the other option (Logan's running everyone) is going to be a really hard sell.

jerf 2y ago
Government can't do it either. Defined benefit is impossible for everyone. "Government" should be understood as a general term, not just "The US government" or whatever Western country you may live in. How many governments have fallen in the past 20 years? Probably more than you may realize. How sure are you that "the government" you live under will be there in 30 years? There's an awful lot of stress in the world right now. And I'm not even talking about governments providing pensions, I'm talking about the fact you can't even count on them to exist. They still can't provide the impossible after that and promise absolutely defined benefits. Although this is a non-trivial part of why defined benefit is impossible for any entity to provide, because no entity can provide 100% reassurance it's going to be there in 40-50 years. None. Not government, not an individual, not a foundation, not a company, none. There is no way to put an obligation on future humans that the future humans can not do some combination of repudiation or simply failing to be able to meet them. It is already looking to me very likely that if the US does have continuity up until my retirement, still ~20 years away, that while it may nominally provide all the "dollars" it promises I will receive, that those dollars will be not worth very much. There's more than one way to fail to make good on promises and confusing people about "give me $20 today and I'll give you $50 in 40 years" is one that still gets almost everyone... that sounds fantastic to most people and it's actually terrible, if the government also controls what dollars are worth.
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Society might collapse so we can't feed old people is a heck of a take. The government controls what the dollars are worth no matter what. You provide no solution only doom and gloom. Maybe go for a hike in the woods. Either we figure something out or we go back to old people eating scraps out of trash cans like they did before we established social security. If a society can't progress and get rid of at the very least scarcity of food for old people during the most unprecedented growth of productivity in the history of the planet, what is the point of that society?
  - jerf 2y ago
    You are misreading a descriptive take with a normative take. The problem is that defined benefit plans are not possible. If you actually care about old people, rather than caring about scoring internet points yelling at people online, then the correct solution is to understand the problem, and start dealing with it. The "yell at anyone explaining that defined benefits plans are impossible and then give out defined benefits plans anyhow" is what is and will continue to hurt people. It's not people like me hurting people, it's people like you who insist on living in fantasy because my gosh isn't the fantasy nicer than the reality.

whartung 2y ago

> It isn't legally possible to "just" take a pension away. Is that true? I simply point out the common TV trope of police officers, essentially, "trapped" waiting to, I guess, vest and get their pensions. They seem to use it a lot as a discipline incentive, for example. "Don't do that Hank, or you'll lose your pension!" etc. But I know my mother got a pension working for a company for only a few years, so I don't know how that all works. "It depends" I'm sure.

jerf 2y ago
"just", complete with scarequotes, is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that phrase. Once it is obtained you can't "just" take it away, legally. That doesn't mean there's no way to do it or that there's no legal way to do it, it's just not something you can "just" do. And it's not just legal. The solution to the US's debt problem isn't that you "just" stop paying Medicare and Social Security, because that causes its own problems. From a sufficiently cynical point of view, but one that still carries rather a lot of truth, Medicare and Social Security are payoffs for certain portions of the population to not riot, or induce other parts of the population to riot. The government can't "just" stop paying them.