6 ms·

> When you come in here talking about how "harmful" words like "cure" are, Again, I am not saying this. Like at all. Saying things like autism is something tha

> When you come in here talking about how "harmful" words like "cure" are, Again, I am not saying this. Like at all. Saying things like autism is something that should be cured is harmful. How many times have I repeated this in this thread? Especially when you're saying things like, "even if the individual doesn't want it," precisely demonstrating the issues involved here. > There is no "stigma" on therapy except for the stigma you are trying to make. There is stigma against people with autism in no small part caused by the exact arguments you are making here. How is this distinction not clear? > No, what you and another commenter are "pushing back against" is anyone suggesting that therapy is needed and better therapy would be better. No one is saying this! We're talking about a cure. Particularly in your case an involuntary one. Plenty of people are in therapy for this, and get coaching, me included! No one has a problem with that. FWIW I am on the spectrum and not new to any of these arguments, they're always presented in this same dishonest fashion. Have a good one. You need more help than anyone else, I suspect - You can't seem to have an honest discussion about this, so I'm done. FWIW I work in ASD support groups with people of varying severities and the majority whenever this comes up would opt to not have a cure. No one has a problem with congenitally deaf people opting not to be "cured," so why is there such an issue here? Again, rhetorical question, I know the answer, and I have absolutely zero interest in discussing this further with someone like you.

cogman10 2y ago
> Saying things like autism is something that should be cured is harmful. Quote where I said autism should be cured. I am specifically talking about you flying off the handle because the word cure was mentioned. > How many times have I repeated this in this thread? Never. But again, what you have advocated is avoiding unwanted treatment which is the exact binary that's toxic from your world view. > There is stigma against people with autism in no small part caused by the exact arguments you are making here. Which argument have I made that stigmatizes autism. > We're talking about a cure. Particularly in your case an involuntary one. Plenty of people are in therapy for this, and get coaching, me included! No one has a problem with that. No, we aren't and I did not start this thread suggesting that a "cure" was possible or even desirable. But you jumped in screaming at me for mentioning the word cure. Even now, you are taking sentences I entered out of context because you want to make this conversation about a more safe position, that absolutely "curing" autism is something I want to do or would do. You accused me of thinking of autism as being a social ill. I never said that. You accused me of trying to force cures on everyone, I never said that. You've accused me of not understanding what autism is, but now you run away when I give a pretty damn good definition of what it is. I have acted in good faith, all be it heated, in this conversation while you have been shifting goal posts and failing to respond to the points I've made. Instead, you fell back on accusations of my thoughts and motivations. > You need more help than anyone else, I suspect - You can't seem to have an honest discussion about this, so I'm done. No, you just can't admit to being wrong. You made accusations about what I thought and said and now when you can't actually back up the accusations you run away accusing me of being dishonest. That is dishonest and you know it. Because you can't address the points I've made you've fallen onto the "Oh, you just are a terrible person that needs help". > FWIW I work in ASD support groups with people of varying severities and the majority whenever this comes up would opt to not have a cure. Cool, have you ever asked someone with severe autism this question? What did they say? Oh wait, nothing because if you've worked with ASD groups you know severe ASD folk are incapable of telling you what they think one way or another about treatment or therapy (beyond not liking it). You have interacted with groups of people with mild to moderate ASD and generalized what that means for severe cases. Which is the entire thrust of the problem I have with people like you and a running theme of my comments. I have never said that someone who can advocate for themselves shouldn't be listened to. But instead of reading that, you want to read into what I've written that I want to shoot a magic cure all at everyone with autism. A position I NEVER TOOK. That is dishonest. > No one has a problem with congenitally deaf people opting not to be "cured," so why is there such an issue here? Again, rhetorical question, I know the answer, and I have absolutely zero interest in discussing this further with someone like you. But I'll answer it even though you don't like the answer. 1. I didn't suggest that someone with ASD who can advocate for themselves shouldn't have an active role in any therapy or treatment they receive. But if you respond, I suspect you'll leave this out. 2. Deaf people are fully capable of understanding and advocating for themselves and their needs. 3. People with severe autism are not capable of advocating for themselves or their needs. Further, they are not capable of understanding the implications of treatments or therapies. That is the key point which you refuse to want to acknowledge is that ASD is a spectrum disorder and there is a huge difference between someone who is mild and someone on the severe end. Anyone that writes ANYTHING about how they don't want treatments or "cures" is definitionally moderate or mild in terms of the autism symptoms. Can you understand that? Someone like you does not want to recognize the gradations of autism. Instead, you want to pretend that the self diagnosed internet warriors can represent everyone with ASD in all cases. You are the one taking the nuance out of the discussion because you can't even admit in this comment section that unwanted therapies or drugs are sometimes necessary.
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  > Quote where I said autism should be cured. I am specifically talking about you flying off the handle because the word cure was mentioned. > The thrust of my argument is that therapy is necessary and desirable despite the individual not wanting it. Do your pedantry elsewhere, this is just directly in the comment I’m responding to most recently. You want to talk about the differences between tthe words “therapy” and “cure” in the context of this discussion, which you have pulled from other comments I’ve made not in direct response of you - completely not interested and only commenting now to expose what a bad faith “Autism speaks” argument typically looks like, because I’ve had this same argument a bazillion times. This doesn’t waste the amount of time you think it does, next I imagine you’ll be asking for links to posts. anyone can read this comment thread. > Cool, have you ever asked someone with severe autism this question? What did they say? Oh wait, nothing because if you've worked with ASD groups you know severe ASD folk are incapable of telling you what they think one way or another about treatment or therapy (beyond not liking it). Yes. I have. Including a relative of mine, and including a person I have coached. In my experience, they don’t really tend to think anything is wrong with them, or don’t understand - they just react to how other people treat them, and ultimately just want acceptance or no hassle, from the exact type of people making the statements you are making publicly here. As for the rest of your post it is hysterical drivel, blatant misrepresantation and sealioning, and deserves no response. Like, honestly. If you’re actually interested in learning more about this I urge you to join a ASD support group online somewhere and read what people have to say there. Much of what you’re saying has been thoroughly discussed to the point it’s laughed at, and by the way, to address your “show me where I said I think autism is a societal ill”, I just think it oozes off of your tone and posting and overall point here. I acknowledge you literally didn’t say that. hope that helps!
  - cogman10 2y ago
    > Do your pedantry elsewhere, this is just directly in the comment I’m responding to most recently. Go learn how to read. Therapy isn't curing people and you from previous comments know that. You can't quote me saying what you want so now you resort to a strawman and "Well you are just being pedantic". No, it's not fucking pedantry, it's what I'm saying that you can't understand because you can't admit to being wrong. > Yes. I have. Including a relative of mine, and including a person I have coached. There, you do not understand the autism spectrum if you think you've had a conversation with someone with severe autism. You haven't because DEFINITIONALLY people with severe autism cannot communicate. You have had conversations with people that have mild or moderate autism. Because, definitionally, those are the only people capable of having that conversation. Unless you are pitching facilitated communication bullshit, which is extremely toxic. The thrust of my argument is clear, therapy is essential and sometimes required even when the individual receiving it does not want it. I gave clear examples, but you run away from those because you don't want to admit to strawmaning what I'm saying or advocating. It further flies in the face of what I know you advocate. So bury your head in the sand and pretend like there aren't severe consequences if you don't force a kid to brush their teeth or do food therapy.

cogman10 2y ago

> Saying things like autism is something that should be cured is harmful. Quote where I said autism should be cured. I am specifically talking about you flying off the handle because the word cure was mentioned. > How many times have I repeated this in this thread? Never. But again, what you have advocated is avoiding unwanted treatment which is the exact binary that's toxic from your world view. > There is stigma against people with autism in no small part caused by the exact arguments you are making here. Which argument have I made that stigmatizes autism. > We're talking about a cure. Particularly in your case an involuntary one. Plenty of people are in therapy for this, and get coaching, me included! No one has a problem with that. No, we aren't and I did not start this thread suggesting that a "cure" was possible or even desirable. But you jumped in screaming at me for mentioning the word cure. Even now, you are taking sentences I entered out of context because you want to make this conversation about a more safe position, that absolutely "curing" autism is something I want to do or would do. You accused me of thinking of autism as being a social ill. I never said that. You accused me of trying to force cures on everyone, I never said that. You've accused me of not understanding what autism is, but now you run away when I give a pretty damn good definition of what it is. I have acted in good faith, all be it heated, in this conversation while you have been shifting goal posts and failing to respond to the points I've made. Instead, you fell back on accusations of my thoughts and motivations. > You need more help than anyone else, I suspect - You can't seem to have an honest discussion about this, so I'm done. No, you just can't admit to being wrong. You made accusations about what I thought and said and now when you can't actually back up the accusations you run away accusing me of being dishonest. That is dishonest and you know it. Because you can't address the points I've made you've fallen onto the "Oh, you just are a terrible person that needs help". > FWIW I work in ASD support groups with people of varying severities and the majority whenever this comes up would opt to not have a cure. Cool, have you ever asked someone with severe autism this question? What did they say? Oh wait, nothing because if you've worked with ASD groups you know severe ASD folk are incapable of telling you what they think one way or another about treatment or therapy (beyond not liking it). You have interacted with groups of people with mild to moderate ASD and generalized what that means for severe cases. Which is the entire thrust of the problem I have with people like you and a running theme of my comments. I have never said that someone who can advocate for themselves shouldn't be listened to. But instead of reading that, you want to read into what I've written that I want to shoot a magic cure all at everyone with autism. A position I NEVER TOOK. That is dishonest. > No one has a problem with congenitally deaf people opting not to be "cured," so why is there such an issue here? Again, rhetorical question, I know the answer, and I have absolutely zero interest in discussing this further with someone like you. But I'll answer it even though you don't like the answer. 1. I didn't suggest that someone with ASD who can advocate for themselves shouldn't have an active role in any therapy or treatment they receive. But if you respond, I suspect you'll leave this out. 2. Deaf people are fully capable of understanding and advocating for themselves and their needs. 3. People with severe autism are not capable of advocating for themselves or their needs. Further, they are not capable of understanding the implications of treatments or therapies. That is the key point which you refuse to want to acknowledge is that ASD is a spectrum disorder and there is a huge difference between someone who is mild and someone on the severe end. Anyone that writes ANYTHING about how they don't want treatments or "cures" is definitionally moderate or mild in terms of the autism symptoms. Can you understand that? Someone like you does not want to recognize the gradations of autism. Instead, you want to pretend that the self diagnosed internet warriors can represent everyone with ASD in all cases. You are the one taking the nuance out of the discussion because you can't even admit in this comment section that unwanted therapies or drugs are sometimes necessary.

JohnMakin 2y ago
> Quote where I said autism should be cured. I am specifically talking about you flying off the handle because the word cure was mentioned. > The thrust of my argument is that therapy is necessary and desirable despite the individual not wanting it. Do your pedantry elsewhere, this is just directly in the comment I’m responding to most recently. You want to talk about the differences between tthe words “therapy” and “cure” in the context of this discussion, which you have pulled from other comments I’ve made not in direct response of you - completely not interested and only commenting now to expose what a bad faith “Autism speaks” argument typically looks like, because I’ve had this same argument a bazillion times. This doesn’t waste the amount of time you think it does, next I imagine you’ll be asking for links to posts. anyone can read this comment thread. > Cool, have you ever asked someone with severe autism this question? What did they say? Oh wait, nothing because if you've worked with ASD groups you know severe ASD folk are incapable of telling you what they think one way or another about treatment or therapy (beyond not liking it). Yes. I have. Including a relative of mine, and including a person I have coached. In my experience, they don’t really tend to think anything is wrong with them, or don’t understand - they just react to how other people treat them, and ultimately just want acceptance or no hassle, from the exact type of people making the statements you are making publicly here. As for the rest of your post it is hysterical drivel, blatant misrepresantation and sealioning, and deserves no response. Like, honestly. If you’re actually interested in learning more about this I urge you to join a ASD support group online somewhere and read what people have to say there. Much of what you’re saying has been thoroughly discussed to the point it’s laughed at, and by the way, to address your “show me where I said I think autism is a societal ill”, I just think it oozes off of your tone and posting and overall point here. I acknowledge you literally didn’t say that. hope that helps!
- cogman10 2y ago
  > Do your pedantry elsewhere, this is just directly in the comment I’m responding to most recently. Go learn how to read. Therapy isn't curing people and you from previous comments know that. You can't quote me saying what you want so now you resort to a strawman and "Well you are just being pedantic". No, it's not fucking pedantry, it's what I'm saying that you can't understand because you can't admit to being wrong. > Yes. I have. Including a relative of mine, and including a person I have coached. There, you do not understand the autism spectrum if you think you've had a conversation with someone with severe autism. You haven't because DEFINITIONALLY people with severe autism cannot communicate. You have had conversations with people that have mild or moderate autism. Because, definitionally, those are the only people capable of having that conversation. Unless you are pitching facilitated communication bullshit, which is extremely toxic. The thrust of my argument is clear, therapy is essential and sometimes required even when the individual receiving it does not want it. I gave clear examples, but you run away from those because you don't want to admit to strawmaning what I'm saying or advocating. It further flies in the face of what I know you advocate. So bury your head in the sand and pretend like there aren't severe consequences if you don't force a kid to brush their teeth or do food therapy.