4 ms·

I regret the situation led to the OP feel discourage about the NLP community, wo which I belong, and I just want to say "we're not all like that", even though i

by jll29 2y ago

I regret the situation led to the OP feel discourage about the NLP community, wo which I belong, and I just want to say "we're not all like that", even though it is a trend and we're close to peak hype (slightly past even?). The complaint about pollution of the Web with artificial content is timely, and it's not even the first time due to spam farms intended to game PageRank, among other nonsense. This may just mean there is new value in hand-curated lists of high-quality Web sites (some people use the term "small Web"). Each generation of the Web needs techniques to overcome its particular generation of adversarial mechanisms, and the current Web stage is no exception. When Eric Arthur Blair wrote 1984 (under his pen name "George Orwell"), he anticipated people consuming auto-generated content to keep the masses from away from critical thinking. This is now happening (he even anticipated auto-generated porn in the novel), but the technologies criticized can also be used for good, and that is what I try to do in my NLP research team. Good will prevail in the end.

solardev 2y ago
Have "good" small webs EVER prevailed? Every content system seems to get polluted by noise once it hits mainstream usage: IRC, Usenet, reddit, Facebook, geocities, Yahoo, webrings, etc. Once-small curated selections eventually grow big enough to become victims of their own successes and taken over by spam. It's always an arms race of quality vs quantity, and eventually the curators can't keep up with the sheer volume anymore.
- squigz 2y ago
  > Have "good" small webs EVER prevailed? You ask on HN, one of the highest quality sites I've ever visited in any age of the Internet. IRC is still alive and well among pretty much the same audience as always. I'm not sure it's fair to compare that with the others.
  - solardev 2y ago
    Well, niche forums are kinda different when they manage to stay small and niche. Not just HN but car forums, LED forums, etc. But if they ever include other topics, they risk becoming more mainstream and noisy. Even within adjacent fields (like the various Stacks) it gets pretty bad. Maybe the trick is to stay within a single small sphere then and not become a general purpose discussion site? And to have a low enough volume of submissions where good moderation is still possible? (Thank you dang and HN staff)
    - rovr138 2y ago
      Yes. That's the small web. A good example of the generalization problem you discuss is reddit. You have to unsubscribe from all the defaults and find the small, niche, communities about specific topics. If not, it's the same stuff, reposted, over and over, across different subs and/or social sites.
    - squigz 2y ago
      I'm not entirely sure it's about content (while HN is certainly tech-focused, politics, health, philosophy all come up with regularity) or even content moderation, although they both certainly play a part (particularly the moderation around here. Thanks, staff!) I wonder if it is more to do with the community itself. HN users tend to have very intelligent discussions on pretty much anything, and discourages shitty, unnuanced, one-line takes. This, coupled with a healthy moderation system, makes it hard for the lower quality discussion to break in and override the good stuff.
    - nick3443 2y ago
      The car headlight forums seem to expose the weakness of small web though, in that a lot of the forums that show up in search are "sponsored" by one or two major brands and any open discussion or validation of off-brand solutions, AliExpress parts, etc are quickly shunned or banned.
  - bongodongobob 2y ago
    It's high quality when the content is within HN's bubble. Anything related to health, politics, or Microsoft is full of misinformation, ignorance, and garbage like any other site. The Microsoft discussions in particular are extremely low quality.
    - squigz 2y ago
      I disagree. Even politics spurs intelligent, nuanced discussion here on HN. And to hold up discussions about MS as an example of 'extremely' low quality discussion is, ah, interesting. Do you have any recent examples of such discussions?
      - bongodongobob 2y ago
        I hide every single article about MS because it's filled with all the neckbeardy tropes about their products being garbage spyware, switch to Linux, they're stealing your data, the OS is trash etc. It's comments from people who have never managed large scale MS based environments comparing their Windows Home to the other 90% of the business ecosystem that has nothing to do with home users or MS's main cash cow, businesses, Azure/Entra and M365. I'm done wasting my breath on MS here.
        squigz 2y ago
        This is a funny comment in a thread about low quality discussion.
        bongodongobob 2y ago
        I'm describing why I no longer engage with MS related posts.
        skissane 2y ago
        I’ve posted four comments here on Microsoft in the last 30 days: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41499957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41499957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41408124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41408124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41335757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41335757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41327379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41327379 None of which fit your description of “neckbeardy tropes about their products being garbage spyware, switch to Linux, they're stealing your data, the OS is trash”. And it isn’t just me, because if you look at those comments, I was talking to other people who weren’t invoking those “neckbeardy tropes” either
- 38 2y ago
  its so easy to solve this problem, not sure why anyone hasnt done it yet. 1. build a userbase, free product 2. once userbase get big enough, any new account requires a monthly fee, maybe $1 3. keep raising the fee higher and higher, until you get to the point that the userbase is manageable. no ads, simple.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - jachee 2y ago
    Until N ad views are worth more than $X account creation fee. Then the spammers will just sell ad posts for $X*1.5. I can’t find it, but there’s someone selling sock puppet posts on HN even.
  - abridges6523 2y ago
    This sounds like a good idea. I do wonder if enough people would sign up for it to be a worthy venture because I think the main issue with ads is I think once you add any price at all dramatically reduces participation even if it’s not about cost some people just see the payment and immediately disengage.!
- htrp 2y ago
  Any curation mechanism that depends on passion and/or the goodwill of volunteers is unsustainable.
squigz 2y ago
> people consuming auto-generated content to keep the masses from away from critical thinking. This is now happening The people who stay away from critical thinking were doing that already and will continue to do so, 'AI' content or not.
- trehalose 2y ago
  How did they get started?
  - squigz 2y ago
    They likely never started critically thinking, so they never had to get started on not doing so. (If children are never taught to think critically, then...)
    - sweeter 2y ago
      It's almost like its a systemic failure that is artificially created so that people wont think critically... hmmm
      - squigz 2y ago
        Yeah, it's almost like it has nothing to do with AI
      - vladms 2y ago
        > is artificially created You imply that thousands of year ago everybody was thinking critically? Thinking critically is hard, stressful and might take some joy from your life.
        sweeter 2y ago
        I'm not sure how that would imply anything about the past. We as a society have spent decades defanging the public school system through changing school to be test score driven, tying a schools funding to the local property value, making them less effective and less safe, choking them out financially etc... it should be no surprise that children are not equipped to navigate modern life. I've been though these systems, they are deeply flawed.
sweeter 2y ago
tangentially related, but Marx also predicted that crypto and NFT's would exist in 1894 [1] and I only bring it up because its kind of wild how we keep crossing these "red lines" without even blinking. It's like that meme: Sci-fi author: I created the Torment Nexus to serve as a cautionary tale... Tech Company: Alas, we have created the Torment Nexus from the classic Sci-fi novel "Don't Create the Torment Nexus" 1. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch25.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch25.htm
Llamamoe 2y ago
> Good will prevail in the end. Even if, this is a dangerous thought that discourages decisive action that is likely to be necessary for this to happen.
Intralexical 2y ago
What if the way for good to prevail is to reject technologies and beliefs that have become destructive?

by jll29 2y ago

solardev 2y ago

Have "good" small webs EVER prevailed? Every content system seems to get polluted by noise once it hits mainstream usage: IRC, Usenet, reddit, Facebook, geocities, Yahoo, webrings, etc. Once-small curated selections eventually grow big enough to become victims of their own successes and taken over by spam. It's always an arms race of quality vs quantity, and eventually the curators can't keep up with the sheer volume anymore.

squigz 2y ago
> Have "good" small webs EVER prevailed? You ask on HN, one of the highest quality sites I've ever visited in any age of the Internet. IRC is still alive and well among pretty much the same audience as always. I'm not sure it's fair to compare that with the others.
- solardev 2y ago
  Well, niche forums are kinda different when they manage to stay small and niche. Not just HN but car forums, LED forums, etc. But if they ever include other topics, they risk becoming more mainstream and noisy. Even within adjacent fields (like the various Stacks) it gets pretty bad. Maybe the trick is to stay within a single small sphere then and not become a general purpose discussion site? And to have a low enough volume of submissions where good moderation is still possible? (Thank you dang and HN staff)
  - rovr138 2y ago
    Yes. That's the small web. A good example of the generalization problem you discuss is reddit. You have to unsubscribe from all the defaults and find the small, niche, communities about specific topics. If not, it's the same stuff, reposted, over and over, across different subs and/or social sites.
  - squigz 2y ago
    I'm not entirely sure it's about content (while HN is certainly tech-focused, politics, health, philosophy all come up with regularity) or even content moderation, although they both certainly play a part (particularly the moderation around here. Thanks, staff!) I wonder if it is more to do with the community itself. HN users tend to have very intelligent discussions on pretty much anything, and discourages shitty, unnuanced, one-line takes. This, coupled with a healthy moderation system, makes it hard for the lower quality discussion to break in and override the good stuff.
  - nick3443 2y ago
    The car headlight forums seem to expose the weakness of small web though, in that a lot of the forums that show up in search are "sponsored" by one or two major brands and any open discussion or validation of off-brand solutions, AliExpress parts, etc are quickly shunned or banned.
- bongodongobob 2y ago
  It's high quality when the content is within HN's bubble. Anything related to health, politics, or Microsoft is full of misinformation, ignorance, and garbage like any other site. The Microsoft discussions in particular are extremely low quality.
  - squigz 2y ago
    I disagree. Even politics spurs intelligent, nuanced discussion here on HN. And to hold up discussions about MS as an example of 'extremely' low quality discussion is, ah, interesting. Do you have any recent examples of such discussions?
    - bongodongobob 2y ago
      I hide every single article about MS because it's filled with all the neckbeardy tropes about their products being garbage spyware, switch to Linux, they're stealing your data, the OS is trash etc. It's comments from people who have never managed large scale MS based environments comparing their Windows Home to the other 90% of the business ecosystem that has nothing to do with home users or MS's main cash cow, businesses, Azure/Entra and M365. I'm done wasting my breath on MS here.
      - squigz 2y ago
        This is a funny comment in a thread about low quality discussion.
        bongodongobob 2y ago
        I'm describing why I no longer engage with MS related posts.
      - skissane 2y ago
        I’ve posted four comments here on Microsoft in the last 30 days: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41499957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41499957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41408124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41408124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41335757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41335757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41327379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41327379 None of which fit your description of “neckbeardy tropes about their products being garbage spyware, switch to Linux, they're stealing your data, the OS is trash”. And it isn’t just me, because if you look at those comments, I was talking to other people who weren’t invoking those “neckbeardy tropes” either
38 2y ago
its so easy to solve this problem, not sure why anyone hasnt done it yet. 1. build a userbase, free product 2. once userbase get big enough, any new account requires a monthly fee, maybe $1 3. keep raising the fee higher and higher, until you get to the point that the userbase is manageable. no ads, simple.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jachee 2y ago
  Until N ad views are worth more than $X account creation fee. Then the spammers will just sell ad posts for $X*1.5. I can’t find it, but there’s someone selling sock puppet posts on HN even.
- abridges6523 2y ago
  This sounds like a good idea. I do wonder if enough people would sign up for it to be a worthy venture because I think the main issue with ads is I think once you add any price at all dramatically reduces participation even if it’s not about cost some people just see the payment and immediately disengage.!
htrp 2y ago
Any curation mechanism that depends on passion and/or the goodwill of volunteers is unsustainable.

squigz 2y ago

> people consuming auto-generated content to keep the masses from away from critical thinking. This is now happening The people who stay away from critical thinking were doing that already and will continue to do so, 'AI' content or not.

trehalose 2y ago
How did they get started?
- squigz 2y ago
  They likely never started critically thinking, so they never had to get started on not doing so. (If children are never taught to think critically, then...)
  - sweeter 2y ago
    It's almost like its a systemic failure that is artificially created so that people wont think critically... hmmm
    - squigz 2y ago
      Yeah, it's almost like it has nothing to do with AI
    - vladms 2y ago
      > is artificially created You imply that thousands of year ago everybody was thinking critically? Thinking critically is hard, stressful and might take some joy from your life.
      - sweeter 2y ago
        I'm not sure how that would imply anything about the past. We as a society have spent decades defanging the public school system through changing school to be test score driven, tying a schools funding to the local property value, making them less effective and less safe, choking them out financially etc... it should be no surprise that children are not equipped to navigate modern life. I've been though these systems, they are deeply flawed.

sweeter 2y ago

tangentially related, but Marx also predicted that crypto and NFT's would exist in 1894 [1] and I only bring it up because its kind of wild how we keep crossing these "red lines" without even blinking. It's like that meme: Sci-fi author: I created the Torment Nexus to serve as a cautionary tale... Tech Company: Alas, we have created the Torment Nexus from the classic Sci-fi novel "Don't Create the Torment Nexus" 1. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch25.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch25.htm

Llamamoe 2y ago

> Good will prevail in the end. Even if, this is a dangerous thought that discourages decisive action that is likely to be necessary for this to happen.

Intralexical 2y ago

What if the way for good to prevail is to reject technologies and beliefs that have become destructive?