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Yeah, I can't say I'm a big fan of this massive scale booby trapping devices all over civilian society and I suspect most nation stats are not very happy about

Yeah, I can't say I'm a big fan of this massive scale booby trapping devices all over civilian society and I suspect most nation stats are not very happy about this either. The EU is probably not going to be happy at all about Israel using an EU flagged company to do it either. This is going to create a lot of distrust in the international supply chain.

tptacek 2y ago
These aren't civilian devices.
- gruez 2y ago
  The claim isn't that they're "civilian devices", it's that they're "devices all over civilian society". That's relevant because bobby trapping them is liable to cause casualties.
  - exe34 2y ago
    this was a special shipment created for the terrorists. this isn't just putting a bomb into every pager.
    - gruez 2y ago
      >this isn't just putting a bomb into every pager. I never claimed otherwise. Again, the claim isn't that innocent people are carrying the pagers, is that the pagers are around innocent civilians. It's not any different than drone striking terrorists at weddings[1], which also drew criticism from human rights groups. Even if we assume the targets are definitely terrorists, that doesn't solve the issue of civilians who happen to be nearby. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs...
      - exe34 2y ago
        the blast radius is much smaller. from the market video, the people around him were fine, and only the heznobollah guy was considering the impact of terrorism on future generations.
    - freehorse 2y ago
      Were the kids killed also terrorists?
      - Duwensatzaj 2y ago
        Any kids killed were accidental as opposed to the Hezbollah rockets shot at northern Israel. When those rockets killed 12 kids playing soccer those deaths were intentional.
      - exe34 2y ago
        what alternatives would you propose? 1. heznobollas stop firing rockets into Israel? 2. Israel sending smart bombs with much higher collateral damage? 3. an engraved invitation later to members (hehe) of heznobollas to come and be fired upon in an open space to avoid kids? 4. or are you suggesting instead that Jews should just get used to getting fired upon and let their cities be destroyed because you don't care about Jewish kids getting killed? anything I've missed?
        newspaper1 2y ago
        [flagged]
        exe34 2y ago
        [flagged]
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - dtornabene 2y ago
      How do you know this? you can't know it. You have no idea how many people had these devices.
      - exe34 2y ago
        it was a shipment of pagers paid for by heznobollas to communicate because they thought mossad was able to listen and track everything else. it was never a general Lebanese market pager that happens to be used by heznobollas occasionally. they bought in bulk and handed them out to their soldiers.
        dtornabene 2y ago
        Cool man, checked in on the story lately? Because literal solar panels are now exploding across Lebanon. I'm sure everyone within 20 yards of them is clearly a terrorist.
        exe34 2y ago
        you know what? this is brilliant. the news that I can find reasonable sources for is that the terrorists stopped using phones because Israel could track them and send spicy suppositories, so they switched to pagers - and the pagers immediately blew off things they were fond of. At this point, they panicked and went to their 2way radios to ask for instructions from their terrorist leadership..... and their f*cking radios blew up. I love that now there's completely random stories of things blowing up (which aren't actually happening, otherwise there would be more serious reports and evidence). So it sounds like they already have ptsd from evil western infidel technology - it's pretty much biblical in its magnitude - can you really trust that electric toothbrush? what about those hair clippers? those Nike shoes? shoelaces next? it sounds like Israel achieved their objective, these people are now reduced to trusting only stone age technology. their attacks on Israel will now be much less organised and easier to defend against. it's sad that Israel had to burn this phenomenal trump card, it sounds like they were saving it for a ground invasion?
  - Zironic 2y ago
    It's like cluster bombs and landmines. You have no idea where all these things are. You have no idea how many of them exploded and which didn't and it's extremely hard to clean up the duds.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      And neither are against the laws of war. The US has decided to reduce their usage, but Russia uses air deployed landmines with high dud rates and it is not a war crime.
  - loeg 2y ago
    Notably, these are not booby traps. (The defining feature of booby traps is that they are triggered by the victim.)
    - chillingeffect 2y ago
      No. That's one definition, but not the only one.
      - loeg 2y ago
        I believe you are mistaken. Please find any source that defines it in a way that isn't victim-triggered. Every single one I've checked includes similar language.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- tamimio 2y ago
  Says who? Pagers are used by doctors and icom are used by pretty much anyone who needs that communication, like construction workers in a site or first responders.
  - loeg 2y ago
    Not the ones distributed to Hezbollah.
  - petre 2y ago
    Being linked to Hezbollah carries certain occupational risks.
    - freehorse 2y ago
      So if somebody turned the phones of all members of X army (say IDF) into bombs, and exploded them at mass when a lot of them would be off duty with their families, would that be ok? This is what happened here.
      - petre 2y ago
        Fortunately for its members, the IDF is not an amateur terrorist organization and they do check their hardware. Also the exploding hardware attack did occur on a national holiday, but during business hours on a weekday.
      - borski 2y ago
        During wartime? Yes. Technically that would be a targeted attack, and if “somebody” were able to pull that off it would be an absolutely massive win for that “somebody.” I wouldn’t like it, but I certainly could not call that terrorism, as it explicitly targeted militants.
      - meepmorp 2y ago
        > So if somebody turned the phones of all members of X army (say IDF) into bombs, and exploded them at mass when a lot of them would be off duty with their families, would that be ok? Yes. Because it would be an attack targeting active military personnel during a time of war, even if they happen to be around non-combatants at the time.
showerst 2y ago
> This is going to create a lot of distrust in the international supply chain. Is it? If your threat model includes Mossad (or really any nation state) then you shouldn't have trusted those devices in the first place. Even if you didn't have "tiny explosives" on your bingo card, certainly bugs (hardware or software) should've been on there. Given that those pagers are commonly used by doctors and none of them have been reported to explode, I think we can guess that it was targeted to the batches delivered directly to Hezbollah.
- Zironic 2y ago
  For instance, when Apollo Gold lisenced their pagers to a little known hungarian company, having their brand used as a bomb delivery device in the middle-east was not something they would have had on their list of potential brand risks. So now companies engaged in international business not only have to consider exposure to the usual fraud, but also if their counterpart is actively malicious. It's also likely going to make nation states start thinking about supply chains they maybe didn't before. How do you know someone didn't put explosives in your mice, keyboards, monitors, headsets and various other things that were probably manufactured in china?
- ozfive 2y ago
  There were four ambulance workers and two children in the 12 dead.
steventhedev 2y ago
I can imagine the EU is far more interested in an EU flagged company doing business with Hezbollah who are a designated terrorist organization and subject to sanctions. If there's one thing you learn quick in fintech - it's you absolutely do not fuck with sanctions.
- Zironic 2y ago
  If it was a real company that would be the case. However from what I've read the journalists looking into BAC Consulting has found it to be a company in name only with no actual offices or hungarian employees. It makes me slightly curious which company Israel convinced to actually produce these pagers and radios.
  - bitsage 2y ago
    Some more information on this: https://x.com/Osint613/status/1836331854913225172 https://x.com/Osint613/status/1836331854913225172
  - qubitcoder 2y ago
    From the BBC [1]. BBC Verify has accessed BAC’s company records, which reveal it was first incorporated in 2022 and has a single shareholder. It is registered to a building in Budapest's 14th district. As well as BAC, a further 13 companies and one person are registered at the same building. However, our search of a financial information database does not reveal that BAC has any connections to other companies or people. The same database shows no trading information about BAC. For example, there are no records of any shipments between it and any other firms. However, BAC's website, which is now inaccessible, previously said it was scaling up its business in Asia, and had a goal to "develop international technology co-operation among countries for the sale of telecommunication products". The website listed one person as BAC’s chief executive and founder - Cristiana Bársony-Arcidiacono - and does not appear to mention other employees. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cew12r5qe1ro https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cew12r5qe1ro
mrtksn 2y ago
Exactly it’s one thing to target operatives it’s another thing to target large number of people when they’re among the civilians. Phone exploding in a market, doesn’t make it OK if the owner of the phone is a militant. With that logic the Hamas terrorist attack last year isn’t a terrorist attack because many of the victims served in the IDF, which illegally occupies their territory. This is getting ridiculous. Israel will loose the last drops of good will, which is a shame considering how much they achieved to do on that barely habitable piece of land. It breaks my heart.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Under International Humanitarian Law it absolutely does make it OK if the owner of the phone is a militant. This is black letter Law of Armed Combat.
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    Most people are not judges in the international court of justice. The legal technicalities are irrelevant.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      I don't know what that is supposed to mean. There are norms of warfare and these attacks fall within them.
      - mrtksn 2y ago
        It means that those behind it will get the same treatment as known criminal getting away from punishment by the law due to technicalities. More precisely, the Israeli politicians will not get sentenced by the courts of law but the Jewish people will suffer from increased antisemitism, politicians supporting the country of Israel will get unpopular and Israel will lose support. Israeli business will be considered risky.
      - beeboobaa3 2y ago
        [flagged]
caeril 2y ago
> The EU is probably not going to be happy Happiness is irrelevant, especially when it comes to geopolitics. In the US, criticism of Israel is antagonistic to our Judeo-Christian values. In the EU, criticism of Israel is tantamount to the rise of a Fourth Reich. Germany, in particular, is scared shitless of this accusation, and will accept any and all actions by Israel. This is a country who can do no wrong, and will get away with whatever they feel like. > This is going to create a lot of distrust in the international supply chain. This reminds me of people who were legitimately shocked to learn about the Snowden disclosures. If you don't already know the supply chain is thoroughly poisoned, and has been for decades, there is no helping you.
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  Germany has pretty much halted weapon supplies to Israel, so perhaps you should temper your cynical posture with occasional factual updates. https://www.reuters.com/world/germany-has-stopped-approving-war-weapons-exports-israel-source-says-2024-09-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/germany-has-stopped-approving-...

tptacek 2y ago

These aren't civilian devices.

gruez 2y ago
The claim isn't that they're "civilian devices", it's that they're "devices all over civilian society". That's relevant because bobby trapping them is liable to cause casualties.
- exe34 2y ago
  this was a special shipment created for the terrorists. this isn't just putting a bomb into every pager.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >this isn't just putting a bomb into every pager. I never claimed otherwise. Again, the claim isn't that innocent people are carrying the pagers, is that the pagers are around innocent civilians. It's not any different than drone striking terrorists at weddings[1], which also drew criticism from human rights groups. Even if we assume the targets are definitely terrorists, that doesn't solve the issue of civilians who happen to be nearby. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs...
    - exe34 2y ago
      the blast radius is much smaller. from the market video, the people around him were fine, and only the heznobollah guy was considering the impact of terrorism on future generations.
  - freehorse 2y ago
    Were the kids killed also terrorists?
    - Duwensatzaj 2y ago
      Any kids killed were accidental as opposed to the Hezbollah rockets shot at northern Israel. When those rockets killed 12 kids playing soccer those deaths were intentional.
    - exe34 2y ago
      what alternatives would you propose? 1. heznobollas stop firing rockets into Israel? 2. Israel sending smart bombs with much higher collateral damage? 3. an engraved invitation later to members (hehe) of heznobollas to come and be fired upon in an open space to avoid kids? 4. or are you suggesting instead that Jews should just get used to getting fired upon and let their cities be destroyed because you don't care about Jewish kids getting killed? anything I've missed?
      - newspaper1 2y ago
        [flagged]
        exe34 2y ago
        [flagged]
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - dtornabene 2y ago
    How do you know this? you can't know it. You have no idea how many people had these devices.
    - exe34 2y ago
      it was a shipment of pagers paid for by heznobollas to communicate because they thought mossad was able to listen and track everything else. it was never a general Lebanese market pager that happens to be used by heznobollas occasionally. they bought in bulk and handed them out to their soldiers.
      - dtornabene 2y ago
        Cool man, checked in on the story lately? Because literal solar panels are now exploding across Lebanon. I'm sure everyone within 20 yards of them is clearly a terrorist.
        exe34 2y ago
        you know what? this is brilliant. the news that I can find reasonable sources for is that the terrorists stopped using phones because Israel could track them and send spicy suppositories, so they switched to pagers - and the pagers immediately blew off things they were fond of. At this point, they panicked and went to their 2way radios to ask for instructions from their terrorist leadership..... and their f*cking radios blew up. I love that now there's completely random stories of things blowing up (which aren't actually happening, otherwise there would be more serious reports and evidence). So it sounds like they already have ptsd from evil western infidel technology - it's pretty much biblical in its magnitude - can you really trust that electric toothbrush? what about those hair clippers? those Nike shoes? shoelaces next? it sounds like Israel achieved their objective, these people are now reduced to trusting only stone age technology. their attacks on Israel will now be much less organised and easier to defend against. it's sad that Israel had to burn this phenomenal trump card, it sounds like they were saving it for a ground invasion?
- Zironic 2y ago
  It's like cluster bombs and landmines. You have no idea where all these things are. You have no idea how many of them exploded and which didn't and it's extremely hard to clean up the duds.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    And neither are against the laws of war. The US has decided to reduce their usage, but Russia uses air deployed landmines with high dud rates and it is not a war crime.
- loeg 2y ago
  Notably, these are not booby traps. (The defining feature of booby traps is that they are triggered by the victim.)
  - chillingeffect 2y ago
    No. That's one definition, but not the only one.
    - loeg 2y ago
      I believe you are mistaken. Please find any source that defines it in a way that isn't victim-triggered. Every single one I've checked includes similar language.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
tamimio 2y ago
Says who? Pagers are used by doctors and icom are used by pretty much anyone who needs that communication, like construction workers in a site or first responders.
- loeg 2y ago
  Not the ones distributed to Hezbollah.
- petre 2y ago
  Being linked to Hezbollah carries certain occupational risks.
  - freehorse 2y ago
    So if somebody turned the phones of all members of X army (say IDF) into bombs, and exploded them at mass when a lot of them would be off duty with their families, would that be ok? This is what happened here.
    - petre 2y ago
      Fortunately for its members, the IDF is not an amateur terrorist organization and they do check their hardware. Also the exploding hardware attack did occur on a national holiday, but during business hours on a weekday.
    - borski 2y ago
      During wartime? Yes. Technically that would be a targeted attack, and if “somebody” were able to pull that off it would be an absolutely massive win for that “somebody.” I wouldn’t like it, but I certainly could not call that terrorism, as it explicitly targeted militants.
    - meepmorp 2y ago
      > So if somebody turned the phones of all members of X army (say IDF) into bombs, and exploded them at mass when a lot of them would be off duty with their families, would that be ok? Yes. Because it would be an attack targeting active military personnel during a time of war, even if they happen to be around non-combatants at the time.

showerst 2y ago

> This is going to create a lot of distrust in the international supply chain. Is it? If your threat model includes Mossad (or really any nation state) then you shouldn't have trusted those devices in the first place. Even if you didn't have "tiny explosives" on your bingo card, certainly bugs (hardware or software) should've been on there. Given that those pagers are commonly used by doctors and none of them have been reported to explode, I think we can guess that it was targeted to the batches delivered directly to Hezbollah.

Zironic 2y ago
For instance, when Apollo Gold lisenced their pagers to a little known hungarian company, having their brand used as a bomb delivery device in the middle-east was not something they would have had on their list of potential brand risks. So now companies engaged in international business not only have to consider exposure to the usual fraud, but also if their counterpart is actively malicious. It's also likely going to make nation states start thinking about supply chains they maybe didn't before. How do you know someone didn't put explosives in your mice, keyboards, monitors, headsets and various other things that were probably manufactured in china?
ozfive 2y ago
There were four ambulance workers and two children in the 12 dead.

steventhedev 2y ago

I can imagine the EU is far more interested in an EU flagged company doing business with Hezbollah who are a designated terrorist organization and subject to sanctions. If there's one thing you learn quick in fintech - it's you absolutely do not fuck with sanctions.

Zironic 2y ago
If it was a real company that would be the case. However from what I've read the journalists looking into BAC Consulting has found it to be a company in name only with no actual offices or hungarian employees. It makes me slightly curious which company Israel convinced to actually produce these pagers and radios.
- bitsage 2y ago
  Some more information on this: https://x.com/Osint613/status/1836331854913225172 https://x.com/Osint613/status/1836331854913225172
- qubitcoder 2y ago
  From the BBC [1]. BBC Verify has accessed BAC’s company records, which reveal it was first incorporated in 2022 and has a single shareholder. It is registered to a building in Budapest's 14th district. As well as BAC, a further 13 companies and one person are registered at the same building. However, our search of a financial information database does not reveal that BAC has any connections to other companies or people. The same database shows no trading information about BAC. For example, there are no records of any shipments between it and any other firms. However, BAC's website, which is now inaccessible, previously said it was scaling up its business in Asia, and had a goal to "develop international technology co-operation among countries for the sale of telecommunication products". The website listed one person as BAC’s chief executive and founder - Cristiana Bársony-Arcidiacono - and does not appear to mention other employees. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cew12r5qe1ro https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cew12r5qe1ro

mrtksn 2y ago

Exactly it’s one thing to target operatives it’s another thing to target large number of people when they’re among the civilians. Phone exploding in a market, doesn’t make it OK if the owner of the phone is a militant. With that logic the Hamas terrorist attack last year isn’t a terrorist attack because many of the victims served in the IDF, which illegally occupies their territory. This is getting ridiculous. Israel will loose the last drops of good will, which is a shame considering how much they achieved to do on that barely habitable piece of land. It breaks my heart.

tptacek 2y ago
Under International Humanitarian Law it absolutely does make it OK if the owner of the phone is a militant. This is black letter Law of Armed Combat.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  Most people are not judges in the international court of justice. The legal technicalities are irrelevant.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I don't know what that is supposed to mean. There are norms of warfare and these attacks fall within them.
    - mrtksn 2y ago
      It means that those behind it will get the same treatment as known criminal getting away from punishment by the law due to technicalities. More precisely, the Israeli politicians will not get sentenced by the courts of law but the Jewish people will suffer from increased antisemitism, politicians supporting the country of Israel will get unpopular and Israel will lose support. Israeli business will be considered risky.
    - beeboobaa3 2y ago
      [flagged]

caeril 2y ago

> The EU is probably not going to be happy Happiness is irrelevant, especially when it comes to geopolitics. In the US, criticism of Israel is antagonistic to our Judeo-Christian values. In the EU, criticism of Israel is tantamount to the rise of a Fourth Reich. Germany, in particular, is scared shitless of this accusation, and will accept any and all actions by Israel. This is a country who can do no wrong, and will get away with whatever they feel like. > This is going to create a lot of distrust in the international supply chain. This reminds me of people who were legitimately shocked to learn about the Snowden disclosures. If you don't already know the supply chain is thoroughly poisoned, and has been for decades, there is no helping you.

anigbrowl 2y ago
Germany has pretty much halted weapon supplies to Israel, so perhaps you should temper your cynical posture with occasional factual updates. https://www.reuters.com/world/germany-has-stopped-approving-war-weapons-exports-israel-source-says-2024-09-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/germany-has-stopped-approving-...