2 ms·

So... how do track-only cars deal with this? My understanding is that non-road vehicles wouldn't have the same restrictions. Even at the state level, travelling

So... how do track-only cars deal with this? My understanding is that non-road vehicles wouldn't have the same restrictions. Even at the state level, travelling under 5k miles per year exempts you from emmissions standards. I'm not sure if this is built off of the federal law, but it would be very interesting if it actually conflicts with it. It would seem that these tuners have a lawful purpose if there are in fact exceptions for non-road vehicles, such as true race cars. Edit: answered my own question. Seems it's just selective enforcement. State level inspection exemption is still a "visual only" inspection, meaning there can't be any obvious deletes (not really enforced it seems). https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/2137/epa-clarifies-its-position-on-race-cars-internet-freaks-out https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/2137/epa-clarifies-its-...

MerrimanInd 2y ago
Historically the entire engine tuning industry's loophole was some text on their website and product packaging that said "for off road use only". But over the years they've become more brazen about marketing for street use while expecting that disclaimer to protect their liability. IMO the real breaking point was the diesel truck guys. They were both far more active in marketing their defeat devices for road use ("improve towing fuel economy with a DPF delete") as well as the coal rollers just being so hilariously anti-social that there was bound to be pushback. They really pushed the uneasy look-the-other-way truce that the industry had with the EPA and even as a longtime car enthusiast (and engineer who's worked in both emissions engine calibration and electrical vehicles) I can't fault the regulators on this. So to answer your actual question, while technically actual off road use is still legal a lot of bad actors in the industry used every bit of leeway that the regulators gave them and now this crackdown is the result.
- bri3d 2y ago
  The EPA maintain that converting an on-road vehicle to off-road use is illegal, however, by decree rather than legislation. The EPA's interpretation of the Clean Air Act is that any alteration to an emissions control system is illegal - that it's the act of modification, and not the result, that's breaking the law. https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/08-16-2022/federal-appeals-court-rules-racing-coalition-lacks-standing https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/08-... . I'm not a lawyer but the Chevron decision probably changes the playing field here a little bit. This is a double edged sword for tuning companies as the "CARB approval makes the device EPA legal" loophole is also "just" an EPA enforcement order, rather than legislated.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    "The EPA maintain that converting an on-road vehicle to off-road use is illegal" Technically you can convert the vehicle, you just can't convert the engine. The emission regulations prevent deletes based on the engine, not the vehicle. So you could drop in a purpose built race engine and be legal. But even the EPA looks the other way if your vehicle is truly never used on the road. They only seem to enforce it on dual use vehicles.
    - sidewndr46 2y ago
      This is incorrect. Installing an entire new powertrain constitutes a "defeat device". The EPA most definitely does not look the other way for non-road vehicles.
      - giantg2 2y ago
        Source? A new power train is not a defeat device for non-road vehicle because they only regulate the emission at the engine level for the use type. https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/2137/epa-clarifies-its-position-on-race-cars-internet-freaks-out https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/2137/epa-clarifies-its-...
        sidewndr46 2y ago
        unless you somehow install a new engine that retains all of the original emissions equipment, you've defeated it.
        rasz 2y ago
        Do crate engines come complete with all emission stuff? Looking at https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines I dont see exhausts.
        bri3d 2y ago

MerrimanInd 2y ago

Historically the entire engine tuning industry's loophole was some text on their website and product packaging that said "for off road use only". But over the years they've become more brazen about marketing for street use while expecting that disclaimer to protect their liability. IMO the real breaking point was the diesel truck guys. They were both far more active in marketing their defeat devices for road use ("improve towing fuel economy with a DPF delete") as well as the coal rollers just being so hilariously anti-social that there was bound to be pushback. They really pushed the uneasy look-the-other-way truce that the industry had with the EPA and even as a longtime car enthusiast (and engineer who's worked in both emissions engine calibration and electrical vehicles) I can't fault the regulators on this. So to answer your actual question, while technically actual off road use is still legal a lot of bad actors in the industry used every bit of leeway that the regulators gave them and now this crackdown is the result.

bri3d 2y ago
The EPA maintain that converting an on-road vehicle to off-road use is illegal, however, by decree rather than legislation. The EPA's interpretation of the Clean Air Act is that any alteration to an emissions control system is illegal - that it's the act of modification, and not the result, that's breaking the law. https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/08-16-2022/federal-appeals-court-rules-racing-coalition-lacks-standing https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/08-... . I'm not a lawyer but the Chevron decision probably changes the playing field here a little bit. This is a double edged sword for tuning companies as the "CARB approval makes the device EPA legal" loophole is also "just" an EPA enforcement order, rather than legislated.
- giantg2 2y ago
  "The EPA maintain that converting an on-road vehicle to off-road use is illegal" Technically you can convert the vehicle, you just can't convert the engine. The emission regulations prevent deletes based on the engine, not the vehicle. So you could drop in a purpose built race engine and be legal. But even the EPA looks the other way if your vehicle is truly never used on the road. They only seem to enforce it on dual use vehicles.
  - sidewndr46 2y ago
    This is incorrect. Installing an entire new powertrain constitutes a "defeat device". The EPA most definitely does not look the other way for non-road vehicles.
    - giantg2 2y ago
      Source? A new power train is not a defeat device for non-road vehicle because they only regulate the emission at the engine level for the use type. https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/2137/epa-clarifies-its-position-on-race-cars-internet-freaks-out https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/2137/epa-clarifies-its-...
      - sidewndr46 2y ago
        unless you somehow install a new engine that retains all of the original emissions equipment, you've defeated it.
        rasz 2y ago
        Do crate engines come complete with all emission stuff? Looking at https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines I dont see exhausts.
        bri3d 2y ago