7 ms·

Cobb Tuning Hit with $2.9M Fine over Emissions Defeat Devices

38 points by peutetre 2y ago

hnburnsy 2y ago
You knew this was coming... >"Remove any delete features from its custom tuning software and, to the extent possible, force updates to end-users to remove the delete features"
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  I'm curious what kind of sanction a civil fine from a federal agency gives them in this case. For example, if they used a 0 day to compromise my laptop and remove these features would they be within federal law?
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    > A "full delete" of the emission controls on a modern heavy-duty diesel pickup truck can cause it to emit as much harmful pollution as 300 trucks with fully functioning emissions controls! Tampering with only some components also leads to significantly elevated emissions of NOx, PM, carbon monoxide, and hydrocarbons. These pollutants contribute to a variety of public health problems, such as premature death in people with heart or lung disease, heart attacks, irregular heartbeat, aggravated asthma, decreased lung function, and respiratory symptoms such as irritation of the airways, coughing, or difficulty breathing. NOx reacts with sunlight to cause ground-level ozone pollution (smog), so visibility, discomfort and illness may increase in the summer, when people enjoy being outside and traffic increases with travel to vacation and recreation areas. > Violations are widespread and financial penalties are significant. Those who sell or install devices to defeat emission controls can be fined over $5,000 per defeat device, and dealers can be fined over $5,000 per tampered vehicle. Nationally, EPA has settled over 100 civil tampering cases to date, and the Department of Justice has won jail terms and high fines in criminal cases. Federal statute in below citation. https://cleanairnortheast.epa.gov/tampering.html https://cleanairnortheast.epa.gov/tampering.html
- dvdbloc 2y ago
  I wonder to what extent possible is it possible to avoid this by air gapping your tuning computer from now on.
  - bri3d 2y ago
    Yes. This was already implemented quite a long time ago by Cobb (2022 - they called it Project Green Speed), the settlement is just now becoming public. Many tuners air-gapped their tuning computers and hoarded old AccessPorts. However, in exchange they don't get new features, and since Cobb is an end-to-end locked platform (flashing, editing, and logging must all be done using the Cobb tools), this is a fairly significant price to pay.
sdwr 2y ago
Why do people install these parts? Do they improve performance somehow?
- grecy 2y ago
  Exactly that. Higher flowing exhaust means more performance, better sound
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    If you did not change anything about the intake, installing a wider exhaust could be either neutral or detrimental. Many people have bought magic exhaust mods for their naturally-aspirated cars only to discover that the engine now guzzles fuel without being noticeably more powerful.
    - grecy 2y ago
      Of course, Cobb are well known for complete kits with a new intake manifold and higher boost pressures on turbo cars. More air in and out means a bigger bang.
  - fader 2y ago
    s/better/louder. I definitely don't consider "louder" to be better in this case.
    - USiBqidmOOkAqRb 2y ago
      Quite ironically, turbochargers remove a big deal of sound from exhaust, because the energy is extracted back to do useful work. Otherwise it would be emitted as noise pollution, which some sociopaths cherish for some reason. I believe exhaust systems can (and most likely are) acoustically tuned to do similar thing by fluid dynamics too.
- ipv6ipv4 2y ago
  Yes, by leaps, and bounds in some cases. In particular, turbocharged engines tend to have a lot of extra power potential by increasing turbocharger boost.
grecy 2y ago
> The settlement amount was determined due to the company's inability to shoulder a higher payment. I love it! Break the law but pay a small fine because you can’t afford the regular fine!
- onlypassingthru 2y ago
  It looks like they want the company to stick around long enough to brick/cripple the existing devices. If they force them into bankruptcy with an enormous fine, presumably nobody will clean up the mess.
  - Drunk_Engineer 2y ago
    Or...just go through their customer list and revoke the registration of any vehicles that were modified. Customers can then pay for having vehicle inspected at the DMV.
    - jtriangle 2y ago
      Or maybe you let the kids have a little fun and don't worry about it.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  Big business has been pulling the "whoopsie we're bankrupt" for decades. It's only inevitable that it would trickle down.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  This may be a surprise to you, but if they can't pay the larger fine... it just goes unpaid. Funny that. Nor does escalation likely work... if you go seize all the office chairs and other assets, then they can no longer conduct the business which would eventually make it possible for them to pay the fine. Attempting to be more harsh often results in less harsh results.
  - ericd 2y ago
giantg2 2y ago
So... how do track-only cars deal with this? My understanding is that non-road vehicles wouldn't have the same restrictions. Even at the state level, travelling under 5k miles per year exempts you from emmissions standards. I'm not sure if this is built off of the federal law, but it would be very interesting if it actually conflicts with it. It would seem that these tuners have a lawful purpose if there are in fact exceptions for non-road vehicles, such as true race cars. Edit: answered my own question. Seems it's just selective enforcement. State level inspection exemption is still a "visual only" inspection, meaning there can't be any obvious deletes (not really enforced it seems). https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/2137/epa-clarifies-its-position-on-race-cars-internet-freaks-out https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/2137/epa-clarifies-its-...
- MerrimanInd 2y ago
  Historically the entire engine tuning industry's loophole was some text on their website and product packaging that said "for off road use only". But over the years they've become more brazen about marketing for street use while expecting that disclaimer to protect their liability. IMO the real breaking point was the diesel truck guys. They were both far more active in marketing their defeat devices for road use ("improve towing fuel economy with a DPF delete") as well as the coal rollers just being so hilariously anti-social that there was bound to be pushback. They really pushed the uneasy look-the-other-way truce that the industry had with the EPA and even as a longtime car enthusiast (and engineer who's worked in both emissions engine calibration and electrical vehicles) I can't fault the regulators on this. So to answer your actual question, while technically actual off road use is still legal a lot of bad actors in the industry used every bit of leeway that the regulators gave them and now this crackdown is the result.
  - bri3d 2y ago
    The EPA maintain that converting an on-road vehicle to off-road use is illegal, however, by decree rather than legislation. The EPA's interpretation of the Clean Air Act is that any alteration to an emissions control system is illegal - that it's the act of modification, and not the result, that's breaking the law. https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/08-16-2022/federal-appeals-court-rules-racing-coalition-lacks-standing https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/08-... . I'm not a lawyer but the Chevron decision probably changes the playing field here a little bit. This is a double edged sword for tuning companies as the "CARB approval makes the device EPA legal" loophole is also "just" an EPA enforcement order, rather than legislated.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
not_the_fda 2y ago
I'm all for lower emissions, I own an EV. But its silly to go after Cobb which only has 81k sales over 20 years while Ford sells 750k F-150s a year. Yes I know what Cobb is doing is illegal and F-150s are legal, but in the grand scheme of things...
- enragedcacti 2y ago
  edit: see reply, cobb got hit for gas tuners, not diesel, and cobb tuners are 1:1 per car 81k tuners which can each flash any number of trucks, and a full emissions delete on a diesel pickup emits ~300x the pollution of an unmodified vehicle. Further, those 750k trucks are providing astronomically more utility relative to their pollution than diesel drivers are getting out of their +XX HP or +X MPG.
  - not_the_fda 2y ago
    Cobb doesn't sell full emissions delete. They sell performance maps which, yes, increases emissions slightly, not 300x. These aren't the devices you buy to roll coal. And its mostly 1-1 sales. 750k F-150s getting sub 20MPG is the bigger problem than the niche tuner market.
  - bri3d 2y ago
    > 81k tuners which can each flash any number of trucks Cobb hardware has a 1:1 "marriage" system with a given vehicle. > a full emissions delete on a diesel pickup emits ~300x the pollution of an unmodified vehicle This is gasoline tuning. I agree that diesel defeat tuning is awful and should be aggressively destroyed. This isn't that. The calculus for gas tuning is dramatically different from diesel; the fundamental reason is basically that the operating range for a gas engine is tighter and they simply can't be made as dirty as a diesel (plus, the engines are generally physically smaller and just can't pump as much pollutant out no matter how hard you try).
    - enragedcacti 2y ago
      Ahh thanks for the correction, I mixed this up/assumed it was part of the EPA diesel tuning case from last week. You're totally right, gas tuning is definitely not a big deal by comparison although they definitely shouldn't have been facilitating the sale of cat deletes. A cat delete alone causes a 10x-100x increase in pollutants before tuning.

38 points by peutetre 2y ago

You knew this was coming... >"Remove any delete features from its custom tuning software and, to the extent possible, force updates to end-users to remove the delete features"

sidewndr46 2y ago
I'm curious what kind of sanction a civil fine from a federal agency gives them in this case. For example, if they used a 0 day to compromise my laptop and remove these features would they be within federal law?
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  > A "full delete" of the emission controls on a modern heavy-duty diesel pickup truck can cause it to emit as much harmful pollution as 300 trucks with fully functioning emissions controls! Tampering with only some components also leads to significantly elevated emissions of NOx, PM, carbon monoxide, and hydrocarbons. These pollutants contribute to a variety of public health problems, such as premature death in people with heart or lung disease, heart attacks, irregular heartbeat, aggravated asthma, decreased lung function, and respiratory symptoms such as irritation of the airways, coughing, or difficulty breathing. NOx reacts with sunlight to cause ground-level ozone pollution (smog), so visibility, discomfort and illness may increase in the summer, when people enjoy being outside and traffic increases with travel to vacation and recreation areas. > Violations are widespread and financial penalties are significant. Those who sell or install devices to defeat emission controls can be fined over $5,000 per defeat device, and dealers can be fined over $5,000 per tampered vehicle. Nationally, EPA has settled over 100 civil tampering cases to date, and the Department of Justice has won jail terms and high fines in criminal cases. Federal statute in below citation. https://cleanairnortheast.epa.gov/tampering.html https://cleanairnortheast.epa.gov/tampering.html
dvdbloc 2y ago
I wonder to what extent possible is it possible to avoid this by air gapping your tuning computer from now on.
- bri3d 2y ago
  Yes. This was already implemented quite a long time ago by Cobb (2022 - they called it Project Green Speed), the settlement is just now becoming public. Many tuners air-gapped their tuning computers and hoarded old AccessPorts. However, in exchange they don't get new features, and since Cobb is an end-to-end locked platform (flashing, editing, and logging must all be done using the Cobb tools), this is a fairly significant price to pay.

sdwr 2y ago

Why do people install these parts? Do they improve performance somehow?

grecy 2y ago
Exactly that. Higher flowing exhaust means more performance, better sound
- jeffbee 2y ago
  If you did not change anything about the intake, installing a wider exhaust could be either neutral or detrimental. Many people have bought magic exhaust mods for their naturally-aspirated cars only to discover that the engine now guzzles fuel without being noticeably more powerful.
  - grecy 2y ago
    Of course, Cobb are well known for complete kits with a new intake manifold and higher boost pressures on turbo cars. More air in and out means a bigger bang.
- fader 2y ago
  s/better/louder. I definitely don't consider "louder" to be better in this case.
  - USiBqidmOOkAqRb 2y ago
    Quite ironically, turbochargers remove a big deal of sound from exhaust, because the energy is extracted back to do useful work. Otherwise it would be emitted as noise pollution, which some sociopaths cherish for some reason. I believe exhaust systems can (and most likely are) acoustically tuned to do similar thing by fluid dynamics too.
ipv6ipv4 2y ago
Yes, by leaps, and bounds in some cases. In particular, turbocharged engines tend to have a lot of extra power potential by increasing turbocharger boost.

grecy 2y ago

> The settlement amount was determined due to the company's inability to shoulder a higher payment. I love it! Break the law but pay a small fine because you can’t afford the regular fine!

onlypassingthru 2y ago
It looks like they want the company to stick around long enough to brick/cripple the existing devices. If they force them into bankruptcy with an enormous fine, presumably nobody will clean up the mess.
- Drunk_Engineer 2y ago
  Or...just go through their customer list and revoke the registration of any vehicles that were modified. Customers can then pay for having vehicle inspected at the DMV.
  - jtriangle 2y ago
    Or maybe you let the kids have a little fun and don't worry about it.
potato3732842 2y ago
Big business has been pulling the "whoopsie we're bankrupt" for decades. It's only inevitable that it would trickle down.
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
This may be a surprise to you, but if they can't pay the larger fine... it just goes unpaid. Funny that. Nor does escalation likely work... if you go seize all the office chairs and other assets, then they can no longer conduct the business which would eventually make it possible for them to pay the fine. Attempting to be more harsh often results in less harsh results.
- ericd 2y ago

giantg2 2y ago

So... how do track-only cars deal with this? My understanding is that non-road vehicles wouldn't have the same restrictions. Even at the state level, travelling under 5k miles per year exempts you from emmissions standards. I'm not sure if this is built off of the federal law, but it would be very interesting if it actually conflicts with it. It would seem that these tuners have a lawful purpose if there are in fact exceptions for non-road vehicles, such as true race cars. Edit: answered my own question. Seems it's just selective enforcement. State level inspection exemption is still a "visual only" inspection, meaning there can't be any obvious deletes (not really enforced it seems). https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/2137/epa-clarifies-its-position-on-race-cars-internet-freaks-out https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/2137/epa-clarifies-its-...

MerrimanInd 2y ago
Historically the entire engine tuning industry's loophole was some text on their website and product packaging that said "for off road use only". But over the years they've become more brazen about marketing for street use while expecting that disclaimer to protect their liability. IMO the real breaking point was the diesel truck guys. They were both far more active in marketing their defeat devices for road use ("improve towing fuel economy with a DPF delete") as well as the coal rollers just being so hilariously anti-social that there was bound to be pushback. They really pushed the uneasy look-the-other-way truce that the industry had with the EPA and even as a longtime car enthusiast (and engineer who's worked in both emissions engine calibration and electrical vehicles) I can't fault the regulators on this. So to answer your actual question, while technically actual off road use is still legal a lot of bad actors in the industry used every bit of leeway that the regulators gave them and now this crackdown is the result.
- bri3d 2y ago
  The EPA maintain that converting an on-road vehicle to off-road use is illegal, however, by decree rather than legislation. The EPA's interpretation of the Clean Air Act is that any alteration to an emissions control system is illegal - that it's the act of modification, and not the result, that's breaking the law. https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/08-16-2022/federal-appeals-court-rules-racing-coalition-lacks-standing https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/08-... . I'm not a lawyer but the Chevron decision probably changes the playing field here a little bit. This is a double edged sword for tuning companies as the "CARB approval makes the device EPA legal" loophole is also "just" an EPA enforcement order, rather than legislated.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

not_the_fda 2y ago

I'm all for lower emissions, I own an EV. But its silly to go after Cobb which only has 81k sales over 20 years while Ford sells 750k F-150s a year. Yes I know what Cobb is doing is illegal and F-150s are legal, but in the grand scheme of things...

enragedcacti 2y ago
edit: see reply, cobb got hit for gas tuners, not diesel, and cobb tuners are 1:1 per car 81k tuners which can each flash any number of trucks, and a full emissions delete on a diesel pickup emits ~300x the pollution of an unmodified vehicle. Further, those 750k trucks are providing astronomically more utility relative to their pollution than diesel drivers are getting out of their +XX HP or +X MPG.
- not_the_fda 2y ago
  Cobb doesn't sell full emissions delete. They sell performance maps which, yes, increases emissions slightly, not 300x. These aren't the devices you buy to roll coal. And its mostly 1-1 sales. 750k F-150s getting sub 20MPG is the bigger problem than the niche tuner market.
- bri3d 2y ago
  > 81k tuners which can each flash any number of trucks Cobb hardware has a 1:1 "marriage" system with a given vehicle. > a full emissions delete on a diesel pickup emits ~300x the pollution of an unmodified vehicle This is gasoline tuning. I agree that diesel defeat tuning is awful and should be aggressively destroyed. This isn't that. The calculus for gas tuning is dramatically different from diesel; the fundamental reason is basically that the operating range for a gas engine is tighter and they simply can't be made as dirty as a diesel (plus, the engines are generally physically smaller and just can't pump as much pollutant out no matter how hard you try).
  - enragedcacti 2y ago
    Ahh thanks for the correction, I mixed this up/assumed it was part of the EPA diesel tuning case from last week. You're totally right, gas tuning is definitely not a big deal by comparison although they definitely shouldn't have been facilitating the sale of cat deletes. A cat delete alone causes a 10x-100x increase in pollutants before tuning.