3 ms·

> It's downvoted because it's the definition of proportional. Two wrongs don't make a right... are we really at that level of brain activity on HN of all place

> It's downvoted because it's the definition of proportional. Two wrongs don't make a right... are we really at that level of brain activity on HN of all places ? this is schoolyard level You can have proportional terrorism, proportional war crimes, proportional crimes against humanity. Proportionality doesn't tell you much, it certainly doesn't tell you anything about it being indiscriminate or not > Certainly not "indiscriminate". Cool, go tell that to the two kids who died: https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0918/1470609-hezbollah-israel/ https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0918/1470609-hezbollah-israel/ Also feel free to read the actual texts defining these things, detonating explosives in supermarkets is indiscriminate by nature, there is just no way around it if you're in good faith : https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule12 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule12 Both sides are clearly operating out of the boundaries we defined for conventional wars, is it really that hard to accept ? They're not even trying to hide it really... such a strange allergic reaction to these basic facts

nahumfarchi 2y ago
Proportionality is at the center of defining a war crime. "The principle of proportionality (Article 51(5) (b) API) states that even if there is a clear military target it is not possible to attack it if the expected harm to civilians, or civilian property, is excessive in relation to the expected military advantage." https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/resources/international-humanitarian-law/ihl-principle-proportionality/ https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/resources/international-humanita... So, the case that Israel has to make here is that the expected millitary advantage from the operation exceeds the collateral damage. The fact that civilians died doesn't automatically make it a war crime from an international law point of view.
- mempko 2y ago
  I don't believe those children who died care about definitions. In fact they don't care much about anything anymore since they are dead.
  - dijit 2y ago
    Appeal to emotion is harder to take seriously when Hezbollah rockets killed 12 children this year alone.
    - beedeebeedee 2y ago
      Appeal to not be emotional is even harder to take seriously when Hezbollah rockets killed 12 children and Israel has killed 10,000 children this year alone.
      - dijit 2y ago
        You’ve put me in a bad position, because by telling you you’re wrong you will interpret it as if its reasonable. First, we’re talking about Lebanon and its population, lets not muddy the waters further by suggesting that Hamas and Gaza are part of that conflict right now. But if we did, as far as I can make out, for the entire duration of the war since 10/7 there has been a total of 7,500 children identified as being killed. Sadly that number is not backed up by any independent source and unfortunately Hamas has been known to inflate these numbers. Nonetheless, it is a tragedy. An entirely unrelated tragedy to the 12:1 child murder ratio of Hezbollah vs IDF this year, and under entirely different circumstances. I would prefer more interventions in Gaza to mirror this one in its precision and lack of civilian casualties. I’m certain that you would prefer no intervention happen at all, which is where we will have to fundamentally disagree and part ways.
        beedeebeedee 2y ago
        > as far as I can make out ... there has been a total of 7,500 children killed I said 10,000 for this year, which is lower than the amount coming from Gaza. You low balled it much further. Hamas might be accused for inflating numbers, but Israeli apologists are actively deflating that number. Regardless, the numbers are staggering. > I'm certain that you would prefer no intervention ... Firstly, you don't know me but have immediately filled in who you believe I am based on your expectations. You should reflect on that (and how much you are creating your own world), because those prejudices are exactly what motivate the hate that drives these conflicts. I would like to see intervention in Gaza. Number one, would be to stop the indiscriminate bombing of children. Number two, would be to provide relief to all of the people who have lost their homes and livelihood, who have been maimed and are starving. Number three, would be to resolve the displacement of the Palestinians in a just manner. Number four, would be judicial proceedings against anyone (Palestinian or Israeli) who committed war crimes. Israel cannot be bombing civilians. It is a war crime. Gaza is not a sovereign state, but a displaced people living in Israel. If Israel is too weak to go in and arrest criminals who commit heinous crimes, then it needs to contend with the problem and take a different approach to how it deals with the Palestinian people.
Aeium 2y ago
Three grams of explosives in each device used by a hostile military organization. I don't think it could possibly be more targeted. Literally just devices issued by Hezbollah themselves to their own members. Maybe it wasn't perfect. That seems to be the bar you are setting. But much closer to perfect than I would have imagined possible. And closer to perfect than I think most people would have imagined. Maybe that is aggravating to people ideologically set against literally anything they might do. But far superior, and less disruptive to innocent people to tactics used elsewere by Israel. Far far more more targeted and less disruptive to innocent people than the tactics used by Hezbollah themselves.

nahumfarchi 2y ago

Proportionality is at the center of defining a war crime. "The principle of proportionality (Article 51(5) (b) API) states that even if there is a clear military target it is not possible to attack it if the expected harm to civilians, or civilian property, is excessive in relation to the expected military advantage." https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/resources/international-humanitarian-law/ihl-principle-proportionality/ https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/resources/international-humanita... So, the case that Israel has to make here is that the expected millitary advantage from the operation exceeds the collateral damage. The fact that civilians died doesn't automatically make it a war crime from an international law point of view.

mempko 2y ago
I don't believe those children who died care about definitions. In fact they don't care much about anything anymore since they are dead.
- dijit 2y ago
  Appeal to emotion is harder to take seriously when Hezbollah rockets killed 12 children this year alone.
  - beedeebeedee 2y ago
    Appeal to not be emotional is even harder to take seriously when Hezbollah rockets killed 12 children and Israel has killed 10,000 children this year alone.
    - dijit 2y ago
      You’ve put me in a bad position, because by telling you you’re wrong you will interpret it as if its reasonable. First, we’re talking about Lebanon and its population, lets not muddy the waters further by suggesting that Hamas and Gaza are part of that conflict right now. But if we did, as far as I can make out, for the entire duration of the war since 10/7 there has been a total of 7,500 children identified as being killed. Sadly that number is not backed up by any independent source and unfortunately Hamas has been known to inflate these numbers. Nonetheless, it is a tragedy. An entirely unrelated tragedy to the 12:1 child murder ratio of Hezbollah vs IDF this year, and under entirely different circumstances. I would prefer more interventions in Gaza to mirror this one in its precision and lack of civilian casualties. I’m certain that you would prefer no intervention happen at all, which is where we will have to fundamentally disagree and part ways.
      - beedeebeedee 2y ago
        > as far as I can make out ... there has been a total of 7,500 children killed I said 10,000 for this year, which is lower than the amount coming from Gaza. You low balled it much further. Hamas might be accused for inflating numbers, but Israeli apologists are actively deflating that number. Regardless, the numbers are staggering. > I'm certain that you would prefer no intervention ... Firstly, you don't know me but have immediately filled in who you believe I am based on your expectations. You should reflect on that (and how much you are creating your own world), because those prejudices are exactly what motivate the hate that drives these conflicts. I would like to see intervention in Gaza. Number one, would be to stop the indiscriminate bombing of children. Number two, would be to provide relief to all of the people who have lost their homes and livelihood, who have been maimed and are starving. Number three, would be to resolve the displacement of the Palestinians in a just manner. Number four, would be judicial proceedings against anyone (Palestinian or Israeli) who committed war crimes. Israel cannot be bombing civilians. It is a war crime. Gaza is not a sovereign state, but a displaced people living in Israel. If Israel is too weak to go in and arrest criminals who commit heinous crimes, then it needs to contend with the problem and take a different approach to how it deals with the Palestinian people.

Aeium 2y ago

Three grams of explosives in each device used by a hostile military organization. I don't think it could possibly be more targeted. Literally just devices issued by Hezbollah themselves to their own members. Maybe it wasn't perfect. That seems to be the bar you are setting. But much closer to perfect than I would have imagined possible. And closer to perfect than I think most people would have imagined. Maybe that is aggravating to people ideologically set against literally anything they might do. But far superior, and less disruptive to innocent people to tactics used elsewere by Israel. Far far more more targeted and less disruptive to innocent people than the tactics used by Hezbollah themselves.