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There is also the aspect of organized crime using encrypted communication. A recent example being EncroChat, with 6000+ suspects arrested (~200 high value targ

There is also the aspect of organized crime using encrypted communication. A recent example being EncroChat, with 6000+ suspects arrested (~200 high value targets). I'm NOT saying we should dispose of encryption and privacy, but there needs to be modern solutions to modern problems. Personally I can favour privacy intrusion, if and only if, there are checks and balances. E.g. any misuse of invasive technologies would result in whole government (senate, congress, president, supreme court) goes to prison for 25 years minimum w/o pardon.

rightbyte 2y ago
> E.g. any misuse of invasive technologies would result in whole government (senate, congress, president, supreme court) goes to prison for 25 years minimum w/o pardon. You have to factor in misuse of the misuse legalisation too. It would certainly be tempting for some types to false flag a misuse.
mc32 2y ago
The problem is the slippery slope as things get (re)defined. Terrorism used to mean people who planted bombs or caused mass murder to terrorize a population, today it means something very different. Racism used to mean something very specific, now it can be hurled at someone wanting immigration rules. Hate used to mean something, now it means strong disagreement. Spying used to be about monitoring external threats, now it means anyone any law enforcement thinks needs monitoring for whatever reason. It’s expanded so much that just about every suspect in anything was “on the radar” but because so many are on such radar, they don’t have the processing power to deal with them. G.W. and Obama were happy to redefine what torture was. Neither got in trouble and are happy to still work behind the scenes moving political machinery.
- cjbgkagh 2y ago
  Hate crimes now include criminal misogyny and criticism of Israel. So the expansion is already absurd - nothing to stop it from becoming more absurd.
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    The kind of people who claim to be “anti Zionist” are also the kind who want to strengthen hate crime laws. Oops, your progressive attempts to engineer society got used to stifle your own dissent!
    - cjbgkagh 2y ago
      I used to try to make the 'hoisted by your own petard' arguments to no avail. I think it's important to understand that the state allows and in fact in many ways encourages progressive dissent as a tool to curtail civil liberties. Once civil liberties have been dismissed the progressives will no longer be needed and the dissent will no longer be tolerated. It will be a very different world. I think the anti-Israel war-crime protestors found themselves rather surprised when they were no longer treated with kid gloves and treated rather harshly. I think principles are only principles when they have a cost, otherwise they're a fashion, so the the anti-Israel protestors are the progressives I most admire. I'm not brave enough to throw myself against the gears of the machine and have elected to operate in other ways.
  - squigz 2y ago
    > Hate crimes now include criminal misogyny and criticism of Israel. Where?
    - cjbgkagh 2y ago
      Easily googleable so I suggest you do that, I'm not your librarian.
      - squigz 2y ago
        what even is the burden of proof anymore
        cjbgkagh 2y ago
        I cannot assume you're reasonable - especially when it's obvious that you have failed to google the subject or done even a modicum of good faith research.
RHSeeger 2y ago
> Personally I can favour privacy intrusion, if and only if, there are checks and balances. There really isn't a possibility for "only specified individuals, under specific conditions, can bypass the encryption", because it will never last. And once it's broken, it's broken forever.
refurb 2y ago
Your solution is to throw innocent people in jail if one person breaks the law?
- TheChaplain 2y ago
  It was a drastic example, but they are all responsible somehow for the laws. And something as serious (imho) as bypassing encryption and have insight into peoples communication/minds.. Well, it needs a huuge counterweight in case it goes wrong. As corny as it sounds, with great power comes a lot of responsibility.

rightbyte 2y ago

> E.g. any misuse of invasive technologies would result in whole government (senate, congress, president, supreme court) goes to prison for 25 years minimum w/o pardon. You have to factor in misuse of the misuse legalisation too. It would certainly be tempting for some types to false flag a misuse.

mc32 2y ago

The problem is the slippery slope as things get (re)defined. Terrorism used to mean people who planted bombs or caused mass murder to terrorize a population, today it means something very different. Racism used to mean something very specific, now it can be hurled at someone wanting immigration rules. Hate used to mean something, now it means strong disagreement. Spying used to be about monitoring external threats, now it means anyone any law enforcement thinks needs monitoring for whatever reason. It’s expanded so much that just about every suspect in anything was “on the radar” but because so many are on such radar, they don’t have the processing power to deal with them. G.W. and Obama were happy to redefine what torture was. Neither got in trouble and are happy to still work behind the scenes moving political machinery.

cjbgkagh 2y ago
Hate crimes now include criminal misogyny and criticism of Israel. So the expansion is already absurd - nothing to stop it from becoming more absurd.
- Der_Einzige 2y ago
  The kind of people who claim to be “anti Zionist” are also the kind who want to strengthen hate crime laws. Oops, your progressive attempts to engineer society got used to stifle your own dissent!
  - cjbgkagh 2y ago
    I used to try to make the 'hoisted by your own petard' arguments to no avail. I think it's important to understand that the state allows and in fact in many ways encourages progressive dissent as a tool to curtail civil liberties. Once civil liberties have been dismissed the progressives will no longer be needed and the dissent will no longer be tolerated. It will be a very different world. I think the anti-Israel war-crime protestors found themselves rather surprised when they were no longer treated with kid gloves and treated rather harshly. I think principles are only principles when they have a cost, otherwise they're a fashion, so the the anti-Israel protestors are the progressives I most admire. I'm not brave enough to throw myself against the gears of the machine and have elected to operate in other ways.
- squigz 2y ago
  > Hate crimes now include criminal misogyny and criticism of Israel. Where?
  - cjbgkagh 2y ago
    Easily googleable so I suggest you do that, I'm not your librarian.
    - squigz 2y ago
      what even is the burden of proof anymore
      - cjbgkagh 2y ago
        I cannot assume you're reasonable - especially when it's obvious that you have failed to google the subject or done even a modicum of good faith research.

RHSeeger 2y ago

> Personally I can favour privacy intrusion, if and only if, there are checks and balances. There really isn't a possibility for "only specified individuals, under specific conditions, can bypass the encryption", because it will never last. And once it's broken, it's broken forever.

refurb 2y ago

Your solution is to throw innocent people in jail if one person breaks the law?

TheChaplain 2y ago
It was a drastic example, but they are all responsible somehow for the laws. And something as serious (imho) as bypassing encryption and have insight into peoples communication/minds.. Well, it needs a huuge counterweight in case it goes wrong. As corny as it sounds, with great power comes a lot of responsibility.