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Every junior in consulting companies that I spoke to has been explicit in saying that these companies put an excessive amount of work on new hires to gate those

by thefz 2y ago

Every junior in consulting companies that I spoke to has been explicit in saying that these companies put an excessive amount of work on new hires to gate those that don't want to grind out - and artificial effort barrage. Life gets easier once they get past this stage. Having had abysmal managers in my past, I always ask - where was in this case the manager's managers, and why has his shitty behavior not been reported in skip level?

pjc50 2y ago
What would reporting it to the skip level achieve? They will endorse these practices and you've definitely destroyed your career there by doing so.
- pas 2y ago
  yep, here's a story about exactly that at Adobe https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey_company_26_yr_old_ca_4_month_xp_passed_away_rip/lnmahrn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey...
- thefz 2y ago
  > What would reporting it to the skip level achieve? They exist for this sole reason: if your manager is not behaving correctly.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    Again, you're assuming that the organization regards this treatment as "incorrect".
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
It’s more than junior waste a lot of time and are generally not very productive. Life gets easier after because people get better at what they do. Edit: For the people downvoting me, you have to understand that a senior in consulting is basically someone which can do the work by themselves without being babied. A junior is there to learn and hopefully help on simple things. I routinely produced more contents that some of my juniors on projects as a manager despite spending a tenth of their allocated time on it. That was fine. You don’t magically get good at consulting. You have to put in the time.
pas 2y ago
Incentives are against acknowledging the problem. Work-Life Balance Is ‘Western Concept’ https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey_company_26_yr_old_ca_4_month_xp_passed_away_rip/lnluuj0/ https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey... manager and skip manager even sued this person after they left Adobe https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey_company_26_yr_old_ca_4_month_xp_passed_away_rip/lnmahrn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey...
- noobermin 2y ago
  You read these posts and realise this is what companies in the west want to feed by outsourcing. They want to hire shops in the developing world that exploit and harm people because of course someone who is forced to overwork will be cheaper than one who has a smidgen of leverage. Part of the "cheaper labour" is cost of living in other countries, sure, but a lot of it is this sort of thing.
  - pas 2y ago
    Trade is good, because comparative advantages give us economic surplus, but we need compensatory tariffs for labor practices, just as for GHG emissions.
    - noobermin 2y ago
      In short, yes. I hope the comment didn't come off as too protectionist. I'm not against collaboration or trade in general, but the "savings" companies think they reap from outsourcing to countries with much worse labour practices needs to be remedied somehow. It's a form of externality.
      - TeMPOraL 2y ago
        Then there's the whole principal-agent problem and whatever is the equivalent of that for "corporation" (or team) as an entity vs. "corporation" (or team) as people at its helm. Outsourcing could look good financially, but be disastrous long-term because of quality and reliability issues; some decision makers benefit from the short-term outcomes, but many care about long-term too - but then, corporation as an entity sees "shit but profitable" as a long-term gain, so its own incentives are structurally misaligned with that of humans that make it. Etc.
HPsquared 2y ago
Sounds a lot like the "weed-out" classes in first year Engineering.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  yeah except it's first year at school -- not the next 5-10 years of your life, or longer
eleveriven 2y ago
As for the lack of accountability with managers, that’s a huge issue.
apercu 2y ago
Those kinds of tactics gave me acid reflux in mid 20's. I had to re-frame how I look at work after that. Although a few years later I fell in to the trap (again) and left a very senior position to go solo (again) in order to have some agency and prioritize my health and wellness.

by thefz 2y ago

pjc50 2y ago

What would reporting it to the skip level achieve? They will endorse these practices and you've definitely destroyed your career there by doing so.

pas 2y ago
yep, here's a story about exactly that at Adobe https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey_company_26_yr_old_ca_4_month_xp_passed_away_rip/lnmahrn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey...
thefz 2y ago
> What would reporting it to the skip level achieve? They exist for this sole reason: if your manager is not behaving correctly.
- pjc50 2y ago
  Again, you're assuming that the organization regards this treatment as "incorrect".

RandomThoughts3 2y ago

It’s more than junior waste a lot of time and are generally not very productive. Life gets easier after because people get better at what they do. Edit: For the people downvoting me, you have to understand that a senior in consulting is basically someone which can do the work by themselves without being babied. A junior is there to learn and hopefully help on simple things. I routinely produced more contents that some of my juniors on projects as a manager despite spending a tenth of their allocated time on it. That was fine. You don’t magically get good at consulting. You have to put in the time.

pas 2y ago

Incentives are against acknowledging the problem. Work-Life Balance Is ‘Western Concept’ https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey_company_26_yr_old_ca_4_month_xp_passed_away_rip/lnluuj0/ https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey... manager and skip manager even sued this person after they left Adobe https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey_company_26_yr_old_ca_4_month_xp_passed_away_rip/lnmahrn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1fj597h/ey...

noobermin 2y ago
You read these posts and realise this is what companies in the west want to feed by outsourcing. They want to hire shops in the developing world that exploit and harm people because of course someone who is forced to overwork will be cheaper than one who has a smidgen of leverage. Part of the "cheaper labour" is cost of living in other countries, sure, but a lot of it is this sort of thing.
- pas 2y ago
  Trade is good, because comparative advantages give us economic surplus, but we need compensatory tariffs for labor practices, just as for GHG emissions.
  - noobermin 2y ago
    In short, yes. I hope the comment didn't come off as too protectionist. I'm not against collaboration or trade in general, but the "savings" companies think they reap from outsourcing to countries with much worse labour practices needs to be remedied somehow. It's a form of externality.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      Then there's the whole principal-agent problem and whatever is the equivalent of that for "corporation" (or team) as an entity vs. "corporation" (or team) as people at its helm. Outsourcing could look good financially, but be disastrous long-term because of quality and reliability issues; some decision makers benefit from the short-term outcomes, but many care about long-term too - but then, corporation as an entity sees "shit but profitable" as a long-term gain, so its own incentives are structurally misaligned with that of humans that make it. Etc.

HPsquared 2y ago

Sounds a lot like the "weed-out" classes in first year Engineering.

red-iron-pine 2y ago
yeah except it's first year at school -- not the next 5-10 years of your life, or longer

eleveriven 2y ago

As for the lack of accountability with managers, that’s a huge issue.

apercu 2y ago

Those kinds of tactics gave me acid reflux in mid 20's. I had to re-frame how I look at work after that. Although a few years later I fell in to the trap (again) and left a very senior position to go solo (again) in order to have some agency and prioritize my health and wellness.