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> What's extremely insulting is believing that all forms of autism are just societal misunderstandings that need no therapeutic interventions for the individual

> What's extremely insulting is believing that all forms of autism are just societal misunderstandings that need no therapeutic interventions for the individual with ASD. I’d very much like to hear what your definitions of “autism” are, for the classroom to see, because I’m sure it’d be illuminating. also no one is really presenting the argument you’re arguing against here, but cool. The terms and language you’re using here at best suggests you’re extremely ignorant and at worst suggests that you clearly hate or hold a lot of stigma against “autistic” people (not the preferred nomenclature) and see them as a societal ill. That’s what a lot of people are pushing back against.

cogman10 2y ago
> also no one is really presenting the argument you’re arguing against here You said elsewhere in these comments: > plus all the second order effects like kids being medicated/treated that wouldn't necessarily need or want it Yes, absolutely you and others in this thread have made the argument that therapy and treatments are negative things. Don't pretend like you haven't or you wouldn't have jumped in here to talk about how dangerous the word "cure" is. The thrust of my argument is that therapy is necessary and desirable despite the individual not wanting it. An example I gave elsewhere is my child is currently in OT and one of the focuses is brushing teeth (which they do not want). They are also in food therapy because they have 3 foods they actually want to eat. When you come in here talking about how "harmful" words like "cure" are, you are trying to put shame on parents that seek therapy for their kids, even when it's necessary (Or would you like to argue that my kid doesn't need the therapy they are getting?) There is no "stigma" on therapy except for the stigma you are trying to make. It's not the 90s anymore so stop acting like all therapy is somehow a failing on individuals that receive it. > hold a lot of stigma against “autistic” people First off, I never said "autistic people" go reread my comments and stop putting text in my comments. Second. I hold no stigma against people with autism. It is a spectrum of symptoms which means it's impossible to even tell sometimes when someone has autism. So apologize for uncharitably reading my comment. > I’d very much like to hear what your definitions of “autism” are, for the classroom to see Ok, for the classroom and from my own experience (not even googling it right now). Autism is a cluster of symptoms that present at varying levels in individuals. It includes behavioral, sensory, social implications, and motor control difficulties to varying degrees. Including, but not limited to, food restrictions, sensitivity to light, sound, or textures, and a hard time socially interacting with neurotically individuals. Not all people with autism have all symptoms and not all symptoms present in individuals to the same degree. For example, you can have autism but have no problem socially or behaviorally, you may have have sensory issues and food aversions. > see them as a societal ill Quote exactly where I said someone with autism was a social ill or apologize for this offensive comment. > That’s what a lot of people are pushing back against. No, what you and another commenter are "pushing back against" is anyone suggesting that therapy is needed and better therapy would be better. And that is toxic behavior that you should be ashamed of. I've had enough of that sort of toxicity here and elsewhere whenever the topic of autism comes up and I'm calling it out. Stop reading into comments like mine fantasizing what you think I'm saying or implying. Quote what I've said that I should apologize for or bow out for being wrong and an asshole.
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  > When you come in here talking about how "harmful" words like "cure" are, Again, I am not saying this. Like at all. Saying things like autism is something that should be cured is harmful. How many times have I repeated this in this thread? Especially when you're saying things like, "even if the individual doesn't want it," precisely demonstrating the issues involved here. > There is no "stigma" on therapy except for the stigma you are trying to make. There is stigma against people with autism in no small part caused by the exact arguments you are making here. How is this distinction not clear? > No, what you and another commenter are "pushing back against" is anyone suggesting that therapy is needed and better therapy would be better. No one is saying this! We're talking about a cure. Particularly in your case an involuntary one. Plenty of people are in therapy for this, and get coaching, me included! No one has a problem with that. FWIW I am on the spectrum and not new to any of these arguments, they're always presented in this same dishonest fashion. Have a good one. You need more help than anyone else, I suspect - You can't seem to have an honest discussion about this, so I'm done. FWIW I work in ASD support groups with people of varying severities and the majority whenever this comes up would opt to not have a cure. No one has a problem with congenitally deaf people opting not to be "cured," so why is there such an issue here? Again, rhetorical question, I know the answer, and I have absolutely zero interest in discussing this further with someone like you.
  - cogman10 2y ago
    > Saying things like autism is something that should be cured is harmful. Quote where I said autism should be cured. I am specifically talking about you flying off the handle because the word cure was mentioned. > How many times have I repeated this in this thread? Never. But again, what you have advocated is avoiding unwanted treatment which is the exact binary that's toxic from your world view. > There is stigma against people with autism in no small part caused by the exact arguments you are making here. Which argument have I made that stigmatizes autism. > We're talking about a cure. Particularly in your case an involuntary one. Plenty of people are in therapy for this, and get coaching, me included! No one has a problem with that. No, we aren't and I did not start this thread suggesting that a "cure" was possible or even desirable. But you jumped in screaming at me for mentioning the word cure. Even now, you are taking sentences I entered out of context because you want to make this conversation about a more safe position, that absolutely "curing" autism is something I want to do or would do. You accused me of thinking of autism as being a social ill. I never said that. You accused me of trying to force cures on everyone, I never said that. You've accused me of not understanding what autism is, but now you run away when I give a pretty damn good definition of what it is. I have acted in good faith, all be it heated, in this conversation while you have been shifting goal posts and failing to respond to the points I've made. Instead, you fell back on accusations of my thoughts and motivations. > You need more help than anyone else, I suspect - You can't seem to have an honest discussion about this, so I'm done. No, you just can't admit to being wrong. You made accusations about what I thought and said and now when you can't actually back up the accusations you run away accusing me of being dishonest. That is dishonest and you know it. Because you can't address the points I've made you've fallen onto the "Oh, you just are a terrible person that needs help". > FWIW I work in ASD support groups with people of varying severities and the majority whenever this comes up would opt to not have a cure. Cool, have you ever asked someone with severe autism this question? What did they say? Oh wait, nothing because if you've worked with ASD groups you know severe ASD folk are incapable of telling you what they think one way or another about treatment or therapy (beyond not liking it). You have interacted with groups of people with mild to moderate ASD and generalized what that means for severe cases. Which is the entire thrust of the problem I have with people like you and a running theme of my comments. I have never said that someone who can advocate for themselves shouldn't be listened to. But instead of reading that, you want to read into what I've written that I want to shoot a magic cure all at everyone with autism. A position I NEVER TOOK. That is dishonest. > No one has a problem with congenitally deaf people opting not to be "cured," so why is there such an issue here? Again, rhetorical question, I know the answer, and I have absolutely zero interest in discussing this further with someone like you. But I'll answer it even though you don't like the answer. 1. I didn't suggest that someone with ASD who can advocate for themselves shouldn't have an active role in any therapy or treatment they receive. But if you respond, I suspect you'll leave this out. 2. Deaf people are fully capable of understanding and advocating for themselves and their needs. 3. People with severe autism are not capable of advocating for themselves or their needs. Further, they are not capable of understanding the implications of treatments or therapies. That is the key point which you refuse to want to acknowledge is that ASD is a spectrum disorder and there is a huge difference between someone who is mild and someone on the severe end. Anyone that writes ANYTHING about how they don't want treatments or "cures" is definitionally moderate or mild in terms of the autism symptoms. Can you understand that? Someone like you does not want to recognize the gradations of autism. Instead, you want to pretend that the self diagnosed internet warriors can represent everyone with ASD in all cases. You are the one taking the nuance out of the discussion because you can't even admit in this comment section that unwanted therapies or drugs are sometimes necessary.

cogman10 2y ago

> also no one is really presenting the argument you’re arguing against here You said elsewhere in these comments: > plus all the second order effects like kids being medicated/treated that wouldn't necessarily need or want it Yes, absolutely you and others in this thread have made the argument that therapy and treatments are negative things. Don't pretend like you haven't or you wouldn't have jumped in here to talk about how dangerous the word "cure" is. The thrust of my argument is that therapy is necessary and desirable despite the individual not wanting it. An example I gave elsewhere is my child is currently in OT and one of the focuses is brushing teeth (which they do not want). They are also in food therapy because they have 3 foods they actually want to eat. When you come in here talking about how "harmful" words like "cure" are, you are trying to put shame on parents that seek therapy for their kids, even when it's necessary (Or would you like to argue that my kid doesn't need the therapy they are getting?) There is no "stigma" on therapy except for the stigma you are trying to make. It's not the 90s anymore so stop acting like all therapy is somehow a failing on individuals that receive it. > hold a lot of stigma against “autistic” people First off, I never said "autistic people" go reread my comments and stop putting text in my comments. Second. I hold no stigma against people with autism. It is a spectrum of symptoms which means it's impossible to even tell sometimes when someone has autism. So apologize for uncharitably reading my comment. > I’d very much like to hear what your definitions of “autism” are, for the classroom to see Ok, for the classroom and from my own experience (not even googling it right now). Autism is a cluster of symptoms that present at varying levels in individuals. It includes behavioral, sensory, social implications, and motor control difficulties to varying degrees. Including, but not limited to, food restrictions, sensitivity to light, sound, or textures, and a hard time socially interacting with neurotically individuals. Not all people with autism have all symptoms and not all symptoms present in individuals to the same degree. For example, you can have autism but have no problem socially or behaviorally, you may have have sensory issues and food aversions. > see them as a societal ill Quote exactly where I said someone with autism was a social ill or apologize for this offensive comment. > That’s what a lot of people are pushing back against. No, what you and another commenter are "pushing back against" is anyone suggesting that therapy is needed and better therapy would be better. And that is toxic behavior that you should be ashamed of. I've had enough of that sort of toxicity here and elsewhere whenever the topic of autism comes up and I'm calling it out. Stop reading into comments like mine fantasizing what you think I'm saying or implying. Quote what I've said that I should apologize for or bow out for being wrong and an asshole.

JohnMakin 2y ago
> When you come in here talking about how "harmful" words like "cure" are, Again, I am not saying this. Like at all. Saying things like autism is something that should be cured is harmful. How many times have I repeated this in this thread? Especially when you're saying things like, "even if the individual doesn't want it," precisely demonstrating the issues involved here. > There is no "stigma" on therapy except for the stigma you are trying to make. There is stigma against people with autism in no small part caused by the exact arguments you are making here. How is this distinction not clear? > No, what you and another commenter are "pushing back against" is anyone suggesting that therapy is needed and better therapy would be better. No one is saying this! We're talking about a cure. Particularly in your case an involuntary one. Plenty of people are in therapy for this, and get coaching, me included! No one has a problem with that. FWIW I am on the spectrum and not new to any of these arguments, they're always presented in this same dishonest fashion. Have a good one. You need more help than anyone else, I suspect - You can't seem to have an honest discussion about this, so I'm done. FWIW I work in ASD support groups with people of varying severities and the majority whenever this comes up would opt to not have a cure. No one has a problem with congenitally deaf people opting not to be "cured," so why is there such an issue here? Again, rhetorical question, I know the answer, and I have absolutely zero interest in discussing this further with someone like you.
- cogman10 2y ago
  > Saying things like autism is something that should be cured is harmful. Quote where I said autism should be cured. I am specifically talking about you flying off the handle because the word cure was mentioned. > How many times have I repeated this in this thread? Never. But again, what you have advocated is avoiding unwanted treatment which is the exact binary that's toxic from your world view. > There is stigma against people with autism in no small part caused by the exact arguments you are making here. Which argument have I made that stigmatizes autism. > We're talking about a cure. Particularly in your case an involuntary one. Plenty of people are in therapy for this, and get coaching, me included! No one has a problem with that. No, we aren't and I did not start this thread suggesting that a "cure" was possible or even desirable. But you jumped in screaming at me for mentioning the word cure. Even now, you are taking sentences I entered out of context because you want to make this conversation about a more safe position, that absolutely "curing" autism is something I want to do or would do. You accused me of thinking of autism as being a social ill. I never said that. You accused me of trying to force cures on everyone, I never said that. You've accused me of not understanding what autism is, but now you run away when I give a pretty damn good definition of what it is. I have acted in good faith, all be it heated, in this conversation while you have been shifting goal posts and failing to respond to the points I've made. Instead, you fell back on accusations of my thoughts and motivations. > You need more help than anyone else, I suspect - You can't seem to have an honest discussion about this, so I'm done. No, you just can't admit to being wrong. You made accusations about what I thought and said and now when you can't actually back up the accusations you run away accusing me of being dishonest. That is dishonest and you know it. Because you can't address the points I've made you've fallen onto the "Oh, you just are a terrible person that needs help". > FWIW I work in ASD support groups with people of varying severities and the majority whenever this comes up would opt to not have a cure. Cool, have you ever asked someone with severe autism this question? What did they say? Oh wait, nothing because if you've worked with ASD groups you know severe ASD folk are incapable of telling you what they think one way or another about treatment or therapy (beyond not liking it). You have interacted with groups of people with mild to moderate ASD and generalized what that means for severe cases. Which is the entire thrust of the problem I have with people like you and a running theme of my comments. I have never said that someone who can advocate for themselves shouldn't be listened to. But instead of reading that, you want to read into what I've written that I want to shoot a magic cure all at everyone with autism. A position I NEVER TOOK. That is dishonest. > No one has a problem with congenitally deaf people opting not to be "cured," so why is there such an issue here? Again, rhetorical question, I know the answer, and I have absolutely zero interest in discussing this further with someone like you. But I'll answer it even though you don't like the answer. 1. I didn't suggest that someone with ASD who can advocate for themselves shouldn't have an active role in any therapy or treatment they receive. But if you respond, I suspect you'll leave this out. 2. Deaf people are fully capable of understanding and advocating for themselves and their needs. 3. People with severe autism are not capable of advocating for themselves or their needs. Further, they are not capable of understanding the implications of treatments or therapies. That is the key point which you refuse to want to acknowledge is that ASD is a spectrum disorder and there is a huge difference between someone who is mild and someone on the severe end. Anyone that writes ANYTHING about how they don't want treatments or "cures" is definitionally moderate or mild in terms of the autism symptoms. Can you understand that? Someone like you does not want to recognize the gradations of autism. Instead, you want to pretend that the self diagnosed internet warriors can represent everyone with ASD in all cases. You are the one taking the nuance out of the discussion because you can't even admit in this comment section that unwanted therapies or drugs are sometimes necessary.