4 ms·

Notably, this was started in 2020 with a $12B investment - https://www.tsmc.com/static/abouttsmcaz/index.htm https://www.tsmc.com/static/abouttsmcaz/index.htm

Notably, this was started in 2020 with a $12B investment - https://www.tsmc.com/static/abouttsmcaz/index.htm https://www.tsmc.com/static/abouttsmcaz/index.htm Then in 2022, TSMC invested another $18B and received $6.6B from the CHIPS act. My bet, is TSMC was given a “you build in the US or we wont give you defense contract work” in 2018-2020 timeframe lol

iknowstuff 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act#History https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act#Histor...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- thatwasunusual 2y ago
  Of course Republicans opposed it. :-/
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    Does it matter? They played pretend opposition like they always do. Democrats can pass this stuff no problem but people elected the opposition party to advance meaningful democratic reforms like better health care, dealing with housing, increasing minimum wage. They haven't done anything. Its blatantly obvious this chips bill was a giant handout to corporations. Sure the plens get a few breadcrumbs but its pointless to point to republicans when both sides are not really enacting fundamental change for the common man.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
klyrs 2y ago
> My bet, is TSMC was given a “you build in the US or we wont give you defense contract work” in 2018-2020 timeframe lol TSMC is in an extremely precarious geopolitical situation; China's hardball is a lot scarier than Trump's. Expanding their geographical redundancy through billions in handouts is pretty appealing to investors.
- mlyle 2y ago
  TSMC improves the geopolitical situation of Taiwan by building here, too. China doesn't have the possibility of being "the best logic manufacturer left standing" after an invasion and TSMC being destroyed, if some of TSMC's world-class fabs are also located in North America.
  - InkCanon 2y ago
    Would it not make the situation worse? The risk/reward of an intervention massively changes when Taiwan is no longer the only source of chips.
    - mlyle 2y ago
      So, there's two factors here, that move in opposite directions: 1. China is less likely to secure a semiconductor advantage over the West, if TSMC has a US location. Instead, China is likely to take out the nearby, high quality fab, and whatever they are left with domestically is more likely to be inferior to distant capabilities. 2. Because of #1, China is less likely to secure a massive advantage over the US by invading Taiwan; as a result the US may feel it less likely to support Taiwan. I'm inclined to think #1 is the more important one. #1 makes the risk of an invasion much higher. #2 makes the reward for an intervention somewhat lower, but I don't think it changes China's calculation of how likely the US is to intervene that much.
      - high_na_euv 2y ago
        How china would secure semico advantage by invading Taiwan? Those fabs would be damaged or destroyed
        mlyle 2y ago
        > Those fabs would be damaged or destroyed > > China is likely to take out the nearby, high quality fab Yes. If China's domestic fabs are second best or close --- and China may manage to crawl into this position --- destroying the best fab increases their relative standing and significantly hurts Western security. Whatever crumbs they get from Taiwan (the proportion of expertise that decides to roll over and help, and whatever capital equipment survives to be reverse engineered) are just a bonus. If China's domestic fabs are not --- because there's a fab tied for first place in North America-- destroying the neighboring fab that they benefit from clearly doesn't benefit them.
vineyardmike 2y ago
> My bet, is TSMC was given a “you build in the US or we wont give you defense contract work” in 2018-2020 timeframe lol My bet is that TSMC recognizes they are a crazy geopolitical pawn. And is frankly playing their part. Once China develops chip production abilities similar (but not necessarily better) to TSMC, they’re free to destroy Taiwan. Then they’ll be the sole cutting-edge producer, meaning that everyone will continue to do business with them despite their behavior. TSMC and the US recognize this. If TSMC bring their tech to America, they’ll at least be safe to continue manufacturing (“for the shareholders”). It also is self-serving because it changes the geopolitical game. It increases the risks to China of an invasion, and favors to the US increase the odds of US intervention (good for their patriotism). Finally, it’s pretty well established that the US defense industry prefers local factories for security purposes. They’re obviously interested in preserving this ability domestically, and most companies recognize that and accommodate.
- amerikanwanker 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - breerbgoat 2y ago
    Check out Mariupol, Ukraine before and after the Russia invasion https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/28/mariupol-before-and-after-updated-google-maps-reveal-destruction-in-ukraine-city https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/28/mariupol-befor... Then check out Beijing giving Moscow "very substantial" help to beef up its war machine, and in return Russia is handing over its closely guarded military tech on submarines and missiles, in 2024 https://www.politico.eu/article/united-states-accuse-china-help-russia-war-kurt-campbell/ https://www.politico.eu/article/united-states-accuse-china-h... Do you think Dictatorships care about any well being of anyone besides the ruling class?
    - lynx23 2y ago
      [flagged]
- 2y ago

iknowstuff 2y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act#History https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act#Histor...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
thatwasunusual 2y ago
Of course Republicans opposed it. :-/
- nebula8804 2y ago
  Does it matter? They played pretend opposition like they always do. Democrats can pass this stuff no problem but people elected the opposition party to advance meaningful democratic reforms like better health care, dealing with housing, increasing minimum wage. They haven't done anything. Its blatantly obvious this chips bill was a giant handout to corporations. Sure the plens get a few breadcrumbs but its pointless to point to republicans when both sides are not really enacting fundamental change for the common man.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

klyrs 2y ago

> My bet, is TSMC was given a “you build in the US or we wont give you defense contract work” in 2018-2020 timeframe lol TSMC is in an extremely precarious geopolitical situation; China's hardball is a lot scarier than Trump's. Expanding their geographical redundancy through billions in handouts is pretty appealing to investors.

mlyle 2y ago
TSMC improves the geopolitical situation of Taiwan by building here, too. China doesn't have the possibility of being "the best logic manufacturer left standing" after an invasion and TSMC being destroyed, if some of TSMC's world-class fabs are also located in North America.
- InkCanon 2y ago
  Would it not make the situation worse? The risk/reward of an intervention massively changes when Taiwan is no longer the only source of chips.
  - mlyle 2y ago
    So, there's two factors here, that move in opposite directions: 1. China is less likely to secure a semiconductor advantage over the West, if TSMC has a US location. Instead, China is likely to take out the nearby, high quality fab, and whatever they are left with domestically is more likely to be inferior to distant capabilities. 2. Because of #1, China is less likely to secure a massive advantage over the US by invading Taiwan; as a result the US may feel it less likely to support Taiwan. I'm inclined to think #1 is the more important one. #1 makes the risk of an invasion much higher. #2 makes the reward for an intervention somewhat lower, but I don't think it changes China's calculation of how likely the US is to intervene that much.
    - high_na_euv 2y ago
      How china would secure semico advantage by invading Taiwan? Those fabs would be damaged or destroyed
      - mlyle 2y ago
        > Those fabs would be damaged or destroyed > > China is likely to take out the nearby, high quality fab Yes. If China's domestic fabs are second best or close --- and China may manage to crawl into this position --- destroying the best fab increases their relative standing and significantly hurts Western security. Whatever crumbs they get from Taiwan (the proportion of expertise that decides to roll over and help, and whatever capital equipment survives to be reverse engineered) are just a bonus. If China's domestic fabs are not --- because there's a fab tied for first place in North America-- destroying the neighboring fab that they benefit from clearly doesn't benefit them.

vineyardmike 2y ago

> My bet, is TSMC was given a “you build in the US or we wont give you defense contract work” in 2018-2020 timeframe lol My bet is that TSMC recognizes they are a crazy geopolitical pawn. And is frankly playing their part. Once China develops chip production abilities similar (but not necessarily better) to TSMC, they’re free to destroy Taiwan. Then they’ll be the sole cutting-edge producer, meaning that everyone will continue to do business with them despite their behavior. TSMC and the US recognize this. If TSMC bring their tech to America, they’ll at least be safe to continue manufacturing (“for the shareholders”). It also is self-serving because it changes the geopolitical game. It increases the risks to China of an invasion, and favors to the US increase the odds of US intervention (good for their patriotism). Finally, it’s pretty well established that the US defense industry prefers local factories for security purposes. They’re obviously interested in preserving this ability domestically, and most companies recognize that and accommodate.

amerikanwanker 2y ago
[flagged]
- breerbgoat 2y ago
  Check out Mariupol, Ukraine before and after the Russia invasion https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/28/mariupol-before-and-after-updated-google-maps-reveal-destruction-in-ukraine-city https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/28/mariupol-befor... Then check out Beijing giving Moscow "very substantial" help to beef up its war machine, and in return Russia is handing over its closely guarded military tech on submarines and missiles, in 2024 https://www.politico.eu/article/united-states-accuse-china-help-russia-war-kurt-campbell/ https://www.politico.eu/article/united-states-accuse-china-h... Do you think Dictatorships care about any well being of anyone besides the ruling class?
  - lynx23 2y ago
    [flagged]
2y ago