5 ms·

Yale, Princeton and Duke Are Questioned over Decline in Asian Students

40 points by mistersquid 2y ago

VoidWhisperer 2y ago
'Lets end affirmative action!' 'We are going to sue you for something that affirmative action helped avoid' I know i'm likely oversimplifying it but I am trying to highlight the ridiculousness of it
- sandspar 2y ago
  You don't understand the situation. The schools are flouting the law. The Asian students are asking them to follow the law.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago
  Lol you have it backwards. There's so many Asian students in universities that universities are making up obstacles to prevent their numbers increase further. So if the numbers drop that evidence the universities haven't fixed anything.
SweetestRug 2y ago
https://archive.is/9fRXl https://archive.is/9fRXl
zone411 2y ago
The Supreme Court decision was toothless because it allowed universities to create race proxies, and they're exploiting it to make the decision irrelevant. It's even perfectly fine to discuss race in college essays, for example: "Rice University asked students how their perspectives were shaped by their “background, experiences, upbringing, and/or racial identity.”" (https://apnews.com/article/college-application-affirmative-action-f0c006a6210ab244c1b6b4c2b1926b6d https://apnews.com/article/college-application-affirmative-a...). They'll fine-tune them to achieve the exact racial makeup they want eventually. The bigger surprise is that a few schools haven't done it (yet?).
- wodenokoto 2y ago
  But aren’t they aiming for particular racial makeups so not to offend other minority protecting rights groups?
- rufus_foreman 2y ago
  >> The Supreme Court decision was toothless because it allowed universities to create race proxies It most certainly did not. From the decision: "despite the dissent’s assertion to the contrary, universities may not simply establish through application essays or other means the regime we hold unlawful today..."[W]hat cannot be done directly cannot be done indirectly. The Constitution deals with substance, not shadows," and the prohibition against racial discrimination is "levelled at the thing, not the name." ... A benefit to a student who overcame racial discrimination, for example, must be tied to that student’s courage and determination. Or a benefit to a student whose heritage or culture motivated him or her to assume a leadership role or attain a particular goal must be tied to that student’s unique ability to contribute to the university. In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual - not on the basis of race". -- https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/20-1199_hgdj.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/20-1199_hgdj.pdf The Supreme Court decision is not toothless because it explicitly disallows universities to create race proxies.
  - zone411 2y ago
    As your own quote states, it's merely the opinion of part of the Supreme Court that they won’t be able to use proxies. This is not established law that has been tested and the other part of the Court disagrees. They simply have to smart about it. In addition to the explicit statement from Chief Justice John Roberts: "Nothing prohibits universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected the applicant’s life," there are simple ways to use factors others than merit. Some are listed here https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-affirmative-action-diversity-5551cdb2b7206cd9112433e858be4d59 https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-affirmative-action-...: preferences for lower-income students, accepting fewer early admission applications (which are more likely to come from white students), giving preference to first-generation college students, placing less value on test scores and more on high school class ranks, basing admissions on zip codes, and devaluing high school quality, etc. Many more strategies will surface if colleges go through discovery. In the name of surface-level diversity, all of them result in students who will perform worse in college than if admissions were based solely on merit.
egberts1 2y ago
It is not hard to understand if you flood your student body with underachievers thus risking institutional reputation. For me, I no longer pick medical specialists who graduated from Harvard since 2017. Others at various later date. And I felt vindicated after reading https://casetext.com/case/hernandez-v-yale-medical-group https://casetext.com/case/hernandez-v-yale-medical-group
- gopher_space 2y ago
  There’s really no difference between students at this level.
  - sandspar 2y ago
    According to the AAMC's own data, the standard deviation difference between Black and Asian medical school students' MCAT scores is around 1 standard deviation. For the 2023-2024 cycle, the average total MCAT score for Asian matriculants was 514.3, while for Black or African American matriculants, it was 505.7, which reflects a difference of about 0.87 standard deviations. If you're going in for surgery, would you say there's no difference?
    - Denzel 2y ago
      You don’t provide any data to support your premise. There’s an intervening 10 years between acceptance into medical school and showing up at a surgery table. Show the connection between MCAT scores and surgery outcomes.
      - ramblerman 2y ago
        > You don’t provide any data to support your premise lol, The burden is not on the world to prove that 10 years of med school can turn anyone into a good doctor. It's on the people that decided to not take in the best students in the first place.
        2y ago
noobermin 2y ago
Isn't the ask here contradictory? They're asking for affirmative action but in their direction.
- recursivecaveat 2y ago
  Basically their general position is that Asian American applicants are held to a higher standard and admitted at a lower rate than would be the case if you say, only admitted the X highest scoring SATs. If the acceptance rates are falling after affirmative action was outlawed, their interpretation is that this system of everyone writing a little essay about their racial background and we judge the essays is just the old affirmative action system with a wink and a nod.
  - fhdsgbbcaA 2y ago
    It’s almost as though the SAT score is not the only thing considered in admissions. Unlike many Asian countries, the US doesn’t have some big single exam that determines your life outcome. Remind me of where the best universities in the world are again? The places that do admissions solely on test scores? Or these “unfair” places that use more than one metric?
    - josephh 2y ago
      > It’s almost as though the SAT score is not the only thing considered in admissions. That's exactly the problem these Asian countries want to avoid/address: as soon as you deviate from the standardized test scores, you lay yourself open to potential biases and discrimination. > Remind me of where the best universities in the world are again? Quality of Bachelors programs (which is what's being discussed here) has pretty much zero bearing on how universities are ranked.
    - __rito__ 2y ago
      > Remind me of where the best universities in the world are again? The places that do admissions solely on test scores? Or these “unfair” places that use more than one metric? Maybe not the undergrad students, but grad students and many professors of research universities come from the countries where admissions are done solely on test scores. Having a big single exam that determines one's life outcome is bad on principle, but, it removes corruption, and is the most transparent method, ever.
hindsightbias 2y ago
Meritocracy. Some folks keep saying that word, but I don’t think it means what they think it means “We estimate that Asian American applicants had 28% lower odds of ultimately attending an Ivy-11 school than white applicants with similar academic and extracurricular qualifications. The gap was particularly pronounced for students of South Asian descent (49% lower odds).” https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-55119-0#:~:text=We%20estimate%20that%20Asian%20American,(49%25%20lower%20odds) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-55119-0#:~:text=W....
- novolunt 2y ago
  [dead]
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
The UC system wasn’t allowed to consider race or implement affirmative action, at least in the past. As I recall they had significantly higher rates of Asian students compared to the private universities (like Ivy leagues) where affirmative action policies racially discriminate against Asian students
WCSTombs 2y ago
> Among the variables shaping the current numbers is the jump in the percentage of students who chose not to check the boxes for race and ethnicity on their applications. At Princeton, for instance, that number rose to 7.7 percent this year from just 1.8 percent last year. At Duke it rose to 11 percent from 5 percent. Universities may not know whether the “unknown” number includes more white and Asian American students. Well that's pretty significant. And ironically, there could be a link between the increased focus on race in admissions and applicants "opting out," so to speak.
addicted 2y ago
It is obviously the increase in those who haven’t checked boxes. There have been so many articles about this and nearly every article has a comment from an Asian student saying they work to ensure their essays don’t reveal their race. Clearly the college admission advisors are telling Asian students to not mention their race. Also, I’m not sure if international students count here but there’s likely been a drop in Asian students applying to US universities which if they do count may affect the numbers as well.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 2y ago
  Unless the apps are blinded, the last names are a pretty clear sign for Asians and Asian Americans.
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
Ah, and an entire comment section not mentioning the new white whale of college admissions affirmative action: The white male college student

40 points by mistersquid 2y ago

'Lets end affirmative action!' 'We are going to sue you for something that affirmative action helped avoid' I know i'm likely oversimplifying it but I am trying to highlight the ridiculousness of it

sandspar 2y ago
You don't understand the situation. The schools are flouting the law. The Asian students are asking them to follow the law.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago
Lol you have it backwards. There's so many Asian students in universities that universities are making up obstacles to prevent their numbers increase further. So if the numbers drop that evidence the universities haven't fixed anything.

SweetestRug 2y ago

https://archive.is/9fRXl https://archive.is/9fRXl

zone411 2y ago

The Supreme Court decision was toothless because it allowed universities to create race proxies, and they're exploiting it to make the decision irrelevant. It's even perfectly fine to discuss race in college essays, for example: "Rice University asked students how their perspectives were shaped by their “background, experiences, upbringing, and/or racial identity.”" (https://apnews.com/article/college-application-affirmative-action-f0c006a6210ab244c1b6b4c2b1926b6d https://apnews.com/article/college-application-affirmative-a...). They'll fine-tune them to achieve the exact racial makeup they want eventually. The bigger surprise is that a few schools haven't done it (yet?).

wodenokoto 2y ago
But aren’t they aiming for particular racial makeups so not to offend other minority protecting rights groups?
rufus_foreman 2y ago
>> The Supreme Court decision was toothless because it allowed universities to create race proxies It most certainly did not. From the decision: "despite the dissent’s assertion to the contrary, universities may not simply establish through application essays or other means the regime we hold unlawful today..."[W]hat cannot be done directly cannot be done indirectly. The Constitution deals with substance, not shadows," and the prohibition against racial discrimination is "levelled at the thing, not the name." ... A benefit to a student who overcame racial discrimination, for example, must be tied to that student’s courage and determination. Or a benefit to a student whose heritage or culture motivated him or her to assume a leadership role or attain a particular goal must be tied to that student’s unique ability to contribute to the university. In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual - not on the basis of race". -- https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/20-1199_hgdj.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/20-1199_hgdj.pdf The Supreme Court decision is not toothless because it explicitly disallows universities to create race proxies.
- zone411 2y ago
  As your own quote states, it's merely the opinion of part of the Supreme Court that they won’t be able to use proxies. This is not established law that has been tested and the other part of the Court disagrees. They simply have to smart about it. In addition to the explicit statement from Chief Justice John Roberts: "Nothing prohibits universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected the applicant’s life," there are simple ways to use factors others than merit. Some are listed here https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-affirmative-action-diversity-5551cdb2b7206cd9112433e858be4d59 https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-affirmative-action-...: preferences for lower-income students, accepting fewer early admission applications (which are more likely to come from white students), giving preference to first-generation college students, placing less value on test scores and more on high school class ranks, basing admissions on zip codes, and devaluing high school quality, etc. Many more strategies will surface if colleges go through discovery. In the name of surface-level diversity, all of them result in students who will perform worse in college than if admissions were based solely on merit.

egberts1 2y ago

It is not hard to understand if you flood your student body with underachievers thus risking institutional reputation. For me, I no longer pick medical specialists who graduated from Harvard since 2017. Others at various later date. And I felt vindicated after reading https://casetext.com/case/hernandez-v-yale-medical-group https://casetext.com/case/hernandez-v-yale-medical-group

gopher_space 2y ago
There’s really no difference between students at this level.
- sandspar 2y ago
  According to the AAMC's own data, the standard deviation difference between Black and Asian medical school students' MCAT scores is around 1 standard deviation. For the 2023-2024 cycle, the average total MCAT score for Asian matriculants was 514.3, while for Black or African American matriculants, it was 505.7, which reflects a difference of about 0.87 standard deviations. If you're going in for surgery, would you say there's no difference?
  - Denzel 2y ago
    You don’t provide any data to support your premise. There’s an intervening 10 years between acceptance into medical school and showing up at a surgery table. Show the connection between MCAT scores and surgery outcomes.
    - ramblerman 2y ago
      > You don’t provide any data to support your premise lol, The burden is not on the world to prove that 10 years of med school can turn anyone into a good doctor. It's on the people that decided to not take in the best students in the first place.
      - 2y ago

noobermin 2y ago

Isn't the ask here contradictory? They're asking for affirmative action but in their direction.

recursivecaveat 2y ago
Basically their general position is that Asian American applicants are held to a higher standard and admitted at a lower rate than would be the case if you say, only admitted the X highest scoring SATs. If the acceptance rates are falling after affirmative action was outlawed, their interpretation is that this system of everyone writing a little essay about their racial background and we judge the essays is just the old affirmative action system with a wink and a nod.
- fhdsgbbcaA 2y ago
  It’s almost as though the SAT score is not the only thing considered in admissions. Unlike many Asian countries, the US doesn’t have some big single exam that determines your life outcome. Remind me of where the best universities in the world are again? The places that do admissions solely on test scores? Or these “unfair” places that use more than one metric?
  - josephh 2y ago
    > It’s almost as though the SAT score is not the only thing considered in admissions. That's exactly the problem these Asian countries want to avoid/address: as soon as you deviate from the standardized test scores, you lay yourself open to potential biases and discrimination. > Remind me of where the best universities in the world are again? Quality of Bachelors programs (which is what's being discussed here) has pretty much zero bearing on how universities are ranked.
  - __rito__ 2y ago
    > Remind me of where the best universities in the world are again? The places that do admissions solely on test scores? Or these “unfair” places that use more than one metric? Maybe not the undergrad students, but grad students and many professors of research universities come from the countries where admissions are done solely on test scores. Having a big single exam that determines one's life outcome is bad on principle, but, it removes corruption, and is the most transparent method, ever.

hindsightbias 2y ago

Meritocracy. Some folks keep saying that word, but I don’t think it means what they think it means “We estimate that Asian American applicants had 28% lower odds of ultimately attending an Ivy-11 school than white applicants with similar academic and extracurricular qualifications. The gap was particularly pronounced for students of South Asian descent (49% lower odds).” https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-55119-0#:~:text=We%20estimate%20that%20Asian%20American,(49%25%20lower%20odds) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-55119-0#:~:text=W....

novolunt 2y ago
[dead]

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

The UC system wasn’t allowed to consider race or implement affirmative action, at least in the past. As I recall they had significantly higher rates of Asian students compared to the private universities (like Ivy leagues) where affirmative action policies racially discriminate against Asian students

WCSTombs 2y ago

> Among the variables shaping the current numbers is the jump in the percentage of students who chose not to check the boxes for race and ethnicity on their applications. At Princeton, for instance, that number rose to 7.7 percent this year from just 1.8 percent last year. At Duke it rose to 11 percent from 5 percent. Universities may not know whether the “unknown” number includes more white and Asian American students. Well that's pretty significant. And ironically, there could be a link between the increased focus on race in admissions and applicants "opting out," so to speak.

addicted 2y ago

It is obviously the increase in those who haven’t checked boxes. There have been so many articles about this and nearly every article has a comment from an Asian student saying they work to ensure their essays don’t reveal their race. Clearly the college admission advisors are telling Asian students to not mention their race. Also, I’m not sure if international students count here but there’s likely been a drop in Asian students applying to US universities which if they do count may affect the numbers as well.

bitxbitxbitcoin 2y ago
Unless the apps are blinded, the last names are a pretty clear sign for Asians and Asian Americans.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

Ah, and an entire comment section not mentioning the new white whale of college admissions affirmative action: The white male college student