4 ms·

Why? Talent goes where to best pay is, if you’re not paying taxes you can pay your agent more.

by mtnGoat 2y ago

immibis 2y ago
How many computer programmers moonlight as tax avoidance accountants?
- tux3 2y ago
  Tax avoidance is a legal problem instead of a tech problem, but it has many parallels wherever there are bad incentives. These are fundamentally not pro-social activities, but trying to get an unfair advantage through loopholes. More computer programmers might moonlight as SEO gurus, if search engines didn't put up at least a token amount of resistance against scummy low-effort SEO tactics. Fewer tax avoidance accountants would still be tax avoidance accountants, if we made a bigger effort to prevent it. (And that doesn't mean accountants would have to be programmers instead, there are many other kinds of talent)
- smallnamespace 2y ago
  High finance and crypto are two places where a high concentration of technical skills intersect with using those same skills to game our financial and legal systems.
- jacobr1 2y ago
  More like how many people with degrees in Business go into Management Consulting, would like to join a startup as a Product Manager, or accountants that want to be Associates at a VC firm rather than work a big 4. But even for programmers, plenty of people make the decision to go into programming or medicine or law because they are well paid and respected careers. And interests in secondary school and university are influenced by parents, teachers and the culture promoting certain directions. Kids these days are bombarded by STEM everything.
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    Interesting enough I read an article that there is going to be and there is to some degree, a large shortage of accountants over the next 10-20 years as people entering the profession are at record lows and retirements are at all time highs
- tombert 2y ago
  Tangential, but a pet project I've been working on has been doing exactly that! Looking at US federal tax laws and using constraints solves to find optimal paths to the lowest taxes. I don't really do anything besides play with it, my taxes are very simple and boring, but it's been a fun project to play around with.
  - chris_wot 2y ago
    Yeah, that is tax minimization, not tax avoidance. There's a big difference.
    - tombert 2y ago
      Yeah, that's fair enough; outside of keeping as much money as I can in ETFs and index funds, my tax strategies are pretty much non-existent since I don't have enough money for it make a huge difference.
      - quesera 2y ago
        If there are any novel or situation-specific conclusions drawn, that sounds like an easy sell to CPAs and independent tax preparers. Maybe even individual tax optimizers. My naive assumption is that sophisticated analysis will return the same few well-known recommendations almost all the time -- the taxation variant of eating properly, sleeping regularly, and getting appropriate exercise.
        tombert 2y ago
        Certainly for anything I actually do, I've not found anything that is better than something like TurboTax gives me. The scope of what I'm working on is trying to build strategies for holding and selling stock as well in order to minimize taxes. I've only ever used it on paper trades.
    - jdminhbg 2y ago
      Very big! Minimization is when I do it, avoidance is when Apple does it.
- NewJazz 2y ago
  How many people pursue business or accounting degrees instead of mechanical engineering or biotechnology degrees? The talent flows to what policy incentivizes, over the long run. Your point, that people can't just switch careers willy nilly, actually reinforces the point of the article -- that incentivizing accounting games actually reduces time spent on impactful pursuits in the long run.
- AmericanChopper 2y ago
  100% of the ones that do it on a contract basis…
- actionablefiber 2y ago
  Tons of people who get degrees in technical fields work outside that field. There are many people who have have spent at least part of their studies or career in hard science, SWE, IT, management consulting, law or finance before switching to something else in that list to improve their work/life balance, to make more money, to find employment more easily, or simply because learning the field and cracking its puzzles is engaging work for them no matter the exact technical field it's in.
- jongjong 2y ago
  Yes and those few software devs who work in the accounting sector on facilitating tax evasion aren't exactly changing the world for the better. Not exactly the best use of their skills.
- soerxpso 2y ago
  If there were no need for tax avoidance accountants, they very well might have chosen to study to become software engineers instead. It's not like they were born a tax avoidance accountant and would be sitting in the field rotting if they couldn't find work avoiding taxes. Many would at least be regular accountants (efficiently allocating money is still more useful to all of us than efficiently avoiding taxes), or maybe some other sort of lawyer (your city's prosecutors AND your city's public defenders are both sorely overworked).
jongjong 2y ago
Wow. I can't believe people believe this is still true in 2024. I worked in crypto sector which paid really well in some cases... Though compensation had little to do with talent and more to do with focus on political bs and alignment with the needs of corrupt authorities. Some could argue there was an inverse correlation between talent and compensation as the most corrupt people are often that way because they lack talent to begin with. I've observed similar dynamics in big tech corporations, unfortunately. People are promoted on the basis of their incompetence and capacity for self-delusion as it creates the necessary blind-spots which allow organizations to occasionally poke their toes beyond red lines to reap massive profits. Stupidity and incompetence are useful attributes within corporations because they instill a feeling of insecurity in the minds of the affected employees and this makes them highly loyal and controllable. Sometimes I think one of the main reasons these companies hire actual intelligent people is to make the incompetent people feel insecure 'imposter syndrome' and increase their degree of loyalty/compliance. They don't actually need intelligent people to run things because they have monopolies and the big profits are to be reaped in maintaining their monopolies which is achieved via dirty politics; not achieved via innovation. I think many intelligent people have observed this reality in companies they worked for. We've seen the HR manager who will bend over backwards to deny reality to align with the goals of management.
- mtnGoat 2y ago
  Interesting anecdotal response but it’s pretty obvious that top pay attracts top talent, basic market dynamics. Obviously grifters gravitate to where money is, that doesn’t mean all to talent at high pay is a grifter. Correlation != causation

Why? Talent goes where to best pay is, if you’re not paying taxes you can pay your agent more.

immibis 2y ago

How many computer programmers moonlight as tax avoidance accountants?

tux3 2y ago
Tax avoidance is a legal problem instead of a tech problem, but it has many parallels wherever there are bad incentives. These are fundamentally not pro-social activities, but trying to get an unfair advantage through loopholes. More computer programmers might moonlight as SEO gurus, if search engines didn't put up at least a token amount of resistance against scummy low-effort SEO tactics. Fewer tax avoidance accountants would still be tax avoidance accountants, if we made a bigger effort to prevent it. (And that doesn't mean accountants would have to be programmers instead, there are many other kinds of talent)
smallnamespace 2y ago
High finance and crypto are two places where a high concentration of technical skills intersect with using those same skills to game our financial and legal systems.
jacobr1 2y ago
More like how many people with degrees in Business go into Management Consulting, would like to join a startup as a Product Manager, or accountants that want to be Associates at a VC firm rather than work a big 4. But even for programmers, plenty of people make the decision to go into programming or medicine or law because they are well paid and respected careers. And interests in secondary school and university are influenced by parents, teachers and the culture promoting certain directions. Kids these days are bombarded by STEM everything.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  Interesting enough I read an article that there is going to be and there is to some degree, a large shortage of accountants over the next 10-20 years as people entering the profession are at record lows and retirements are at all time highs
tombert 2y ago
Tangential, but a pet project I've been working on has been doing exactly that! Looking at US federal tax laws and using constraints solves to find optimal paths to the lowest taxes. I don't really do anything besides play with it, my taxes are very simple and boring, but it's been a fun project to play around with.
- chris_wot 2y ago
  Yeah, that is tax minimization, not tax avoidance. There's a big difference.
  - tombert 2y ago
    Yeah, that's fair enough; outside of keeping as much money as I can in ETFs and index funds, my tax strategies are pretty much non-existent since I don't have enough money for it make a huge difference.
    - quesera 2y ago
      If there are any novel or situation-specific conclusions drawn, that sounds like an easy sell to CPAs and independent tax preparers. Maybe even individual tax optimizers. My naive assumption is that sophisticated analysis will return the same few well-known recommendations almost all the time -- the taxation variant of eating properly, sleeping regularly, and getting appropriate exercise.
      - tombert 2y ago
        Certainly for anything I actually do, I've not found anything that is better than something like TurboTax gives me. The scope of what I'm working on is trying to build strategies for holding and selling stock as well in order to minimize taxes. I've only ever used it on paper trades.
  - jdminhbg 2y ago
    Very big! Minimization is when I do it, avoidance is when Apple does it.
NewJazz 2y ago
How many people pursue business or accounting degrees instead of mechanical engineering or biotechnology degrees? The talent flows to what policy incentivizes, over the long run. Your point, that people can't just switch careers willy nilly, actually reinforces the point of the article -- that incentivizing accounting games actually reduces time spent on impactful pursuits in the long run.
AmericanChopper 2y ago
100% of the ones that do it on a contract basis…
actionablefiber 2y ago
Tons of people who get degrees in technical fields work outside that field. There are many people who have have spent at least part of their studies or career in hard science, SWE, IT, management consulting, law or finance before switching to something else in that list to improve their work/life balance, to make more money, to find employment more easily, or simply because learning the field and cracking its puzzles is engaging work for them no matter the exact technical field it's in.
jongjong 2y ago
Yes and those few software devs who work in the accounting sector on facilitating tax evasion aren't exactly changing the world for the better. Not exactly the best use of their skills.
soerxpso 2y ago
If there were no need for tax avoidance accountants, they very well might have chosen to study to become software engineers instead. It's not like they were born a tax avoidance accountant and would be sitting in the field rotting if they couldn't find work avoiding taxes. Many would at least be regular accountants (efficiently allocating money is still more useful to all of us than efficiently avoiding taxes), or maybe some other sort of lawyer (your city's prosecutors AND your city's public defenders are both sorely overworked).

jongjong 2y ago

Wow. I can't believe people believe this is still true in 2024. I worked in crypto sector which paid really well in some cases... Though compensation had little to do with talent and more to do with focus on political bs and alignment with the needs of corrupt authorities. Some could argue there was an inverse correlation between talent and compensation as the most corrupt people are often that way because they lack talent to begin with. I've observed similar dynamics in big tech corporations, unfortunately. People are promoted on the basis of their incompetence and capacity for self-delusion as it creates the necessary blind-spots which allow organizations to occasionally poke their toes beyond red lines to reap massive profits. Stupidity and incompetence are useful attributes within corporations because they instill a feeling of insecurity in the minds of the affected employees and this makes them highly loyal and controllable. Sometimes I think one of the main reasons these companies hire actual intelligent people is to make the incompetent people feel insecure 'imposter syndrome' and increase their degree of loyalty/compliance. They don't actually need intelligent people to run things because they have monopolies and the big profits are to be reaped in maintaining their monopolies which is achieved via dirty politics; not achieved via innovation. I think many intelligent people have observed this reality in companies they worked for. We've seen the HR manager who will bend over backwards to deny reality to align with the goals of management.

mtnGoat 2y ago
Interesting anecdotal response but it’s pretty obvious that top pay attracts top talent, basic market dynamics. Obviously grifters gravitate to where money is, that doesn’t mean all to talent at high pay is a grifter. Correlation != causation