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> Have Israel lay down their arms and focus on peaceful gardening and few Israeli Jews will survive. That's because the entire notion of Israel as a concept is

> Have Israel lay down their arms and focus on peaceful gardening and few Israeli Jews will survive. That's because the entire notion of Israel as a concept is predicated on it being under constant existential threats. If Hezbollah goes away, then nothing changes in Lebanon: Lebanese identity isn't based on armed resistance. Israeli identity, however, has nothing else going for it besides armed conflict. If conflicts were to go away, so would Israel. Israeli Jews would just be absorbed into whatever local culture they're in, just as they were prior to the formation of Israel (and just like they are outside of Israel). The remaining ones would be the ones engaging in armed conflict -- just as the original groups like Irgun and Lehi were.

yoavm 2y ago
[flagged]
- someotherperson 2y ago
  An ethno-nationalist state becoming more secular and less extremist? I'm intrigued. Do you believe that the settlements would stop and that Palestinians would be given Israeli citizenship? Would the Palestinians forced out of Israel be allowed to return in this case? Or is this secular, less extremist, conflict-free Israel predicated on Israel continuing to be majority Jewish and with a Jewish government? Edit for your edit: no, nothing to do with Jews. South + North Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine, Singapore, the baltic countries (Estonia etc). Various Arab countries too. In Israel's case the population are made of diaspora which multiplies the effect.
  - yoavm 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - someotherperson 2y ago
      So in this hypothetical scenario where everything is flowers and sunshine, the secular, peaceful Israel is still an ethnostate with a two-state outcome that keeps its ethnic cleansing-attained Jewish majority. It’s wild to me that this is what you consider the best case scenario in a situation where Israel is experiencing complete peace. And then ending it with an unintentional “nur für Deutsche” reference. The Sweden reference is especially apt, given that’s what the Swedish Antisemitic Union also used as a slogan[0] > but most of the places Palestinians left during the war they started on Israel 1947 You really can’t help yourself huh. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Antisemitic_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Antisemitic_Union
      - yoavm 2y ago
        I never said "only for" - you're putting words in my mouth. I said that the idea that Israel will still have a Jewish majority isn't crazy, and can be seen in pretty much any other country in the world, yet it's "wild" to you only when it's happening in Israel. Unfortunately recent history showed that it's quite an essential need for protecting Jews from genocide. If you have a better idea for how we can be sure that our government will not try to kill us because we're Jewish, I'm sure many Jews would love to hear it.
        someotherperson 2y ago
        Well I'm glad we've gone full circle here. I started off with "the entire notion of Israel as a concept is predicated on it being under constant existential threats" and you seem to also accept that now. If conflicts were to stop, so would Israel. So Israel has a perverse incentive to keep the conflicts going -- largely explaining why Israel can't stop bombing its neighbours or trying to lobby others to bomb them. And why things like settlements won't ever stop.
        yoavm 2y ago
        That's skewed logic. The fact that Israel was originally created because Jews needed a safe haven doesn't mean that when they won't need it anymore it will disappear. Also, from Israel's declaration of independence: "we extend our hand to all neighboring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighborliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East." Kinda odd for someone with incentive to keep the war going to say that, not to mention to sign peace agreements with the two neighbors it is sharing the longest borders with, Egypt and Jordan.
edanm 2y ago
What are you even talking about? Israel is a country with a population of 9 million people. Do you think if the conflicts stop, this population would just disappear or something? Whatever the "Jewish identity" was in 1948, Israel now has more than 70 years of existence, giving it an independent identity from just "Judaism".
- someotherperson 2y ago
  Sure, what is that identity? Is there uniquely Israeli cuisine, dances, anything? What is the Israeli identity outside of an existential threat on Jews?
  - yoavm 2y ago
    My most favorite food in the world is an Israeli dish - you should try it if you haven't already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabich We used to do a lot of Israeli Folk Dancing when I was a teenager: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_folk_dance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_folk_dance What else would you like to know?
    - someotherperson 2y ago
      Quoting from your sources: > The idea of the sabich sandwich was most likely created in Iraq Yeah, it's about as Israeli as chicken schnitzel. It's just a regular Iraqi eggplant sandwich. > Israeli folk dances were created as way of helping to create a new Israeli culture in the land of Israel At least the developers of that folk dance appreciate the fact that there was (and still is) a distinct lack of any sort of national culture and have to _develop it_. Even still, from your source, these newly developed dances haven't reached any level of mainstream success save for the Horah which is Southern/Eastern European. Note the original comment: "Israeli Jews would just be absorbed into whatever local culture they're in, just as they were prior to the formation of Israel."
      - yoavm 2y ago

yoavm 2y ago

[flagged]

someotherperson 2y ago
An ethno-nationalist state becoming more secular and less extremist? I'm intrigued. Do you believe that the settlements would stop and that Palestinians would be given Israeli citizenship? Would the Palestinians forced out of Israel be allowed to return in this case? Or is this secular, less extremist, conflict-free Israel predicated on Israel continuing to be majority Jewish and with a Jewish government? Edit for your edit: no, nothing to do with Jews. South + North Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine, Singapore, the baltic countries (Estonia etc). Various Arab countries too. In Israel's case the population are made of diaspora which multiplies the effect.
- yoavm 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - someotherperson 2y ago
    So in this hypothetical scenario where everything is flowers and sunshine, the secular, peaceful Israel is still an ethnostate with a two-state outcome that keeps its ethnic cleansing-attained Jewish majority. It’s wild to me that this is what you consider the best case scenario in a situation where Israel is experiencing complete peace. And then ending it with an unintentional “nur für Deutsche” reference. The Sweden reference is especially apt, given that’s what the Swedish Antisemitic Union also used as a slogan[0] > but most of the places Palestinians left during the war they started on Israel 1947 You really can’t help yourself huh. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Antisemitic_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Antisemitic_Union
    - yoavm 2y ago
      I never said "only for" - you're putting words in my mouth. I said that the idea that Israel will still have a Jewish majority isn't crazy, and can be seen in pretty much any other country in the world, yet it's "wild" to you only when it's happening in Israel. Unfortunately recent history showed that it's quite an essential need for protecting Jews from genocide. If you have a better idea for how we can be sure that our government will not try to kill us because we're Jewish, I'm sure many Jews would love to hear it.
      - someotherperson 2y ago
        Well I'm glad we've gone full circle here. I started off with "the entire notion of Israel as a concept is predicated on it being under constant existential threats" and you seem to also accept that now. If conflicts were to stop, so would Israel. So Israel has a perverse incentive to keep the conflicts going -- largely explaining why Israel can't stop bombing its neighbours or trying to lobby others to bomb them. And why things like settlements won't ever stop.
        yoavm 2y ago
        That's skewed logic. The fact that Israel was originally created because Jews needed a safe haven doesn't mean that when they won't need it anymore it will disappear. Also, from Israel's declaration of independence: "we extend our hand to all neighboring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighborliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East." Kinda odd for someone with incentive to keep the war going to say that, not to mention to sign peace agreements with the two neighbors it is sharing the longest borders with, Egypt and Jordan.

edanm 2y ago

What are you even talking about? Israel is a country with a population of 9 million people. Do you think if the conflicts stop, this population would just disappear or something? Whatever the "Jewish identity" was in 1948, Israel now has more than 70 years of existence, giving it an independent identity from just "Judaism".

someotherperson 2y ago
Sure, what is that identity? Is there uniquely Israeli cuisine, dances, anything? What is the Israeli identity outside of an existential threat on Jews?
- yoavm 2y ago
  My most favorite food in the world is an Israeli dish - you should try it if you haven't already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabich We used to do a lot of Israeli Folk Dancing when I was a teenager: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_folk_dance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_folk_dance What else would you like to know?
  - someotherperson 2y ago
    Quoting from your sources: > The idea of the sabich sandwich was most likely created in Iraq Yeah, it's about as Israeli as chicken schnitzel. It's just a regular Iraqi eggplant sandwich. > Israeli folk dances were created as way of helping to create a new Israeli culture in the land of Israel At least the developers of that folk dance appreciate the fact that there was (and still is) a distinct lack of any sort of national culture and have to _develop it_. Even still, from your source, these newly developed dances haven't reached any level of mainstream success save for the Horah which is Southern/Eastern European. Note the original comment: "Israeli Jews would just be absorbed into whatever local culture they're in, just as they were prior to the formation of Israel."
    - yoavm 2y ago