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It is hard to read things like this and not have a strong emotional reaction instead of the appropriate strong intellectual one. Fundamentally attacks like thes

It is hard to read things like this and not have a strong emotional reaction instead of the appropriate strong intellectual one. Fundamentally attacks like these need to start with the question 'What is an appropriate response?'. These attacks are having an actual impact and have likely swayed many elections. Effectively they have brought down at least parts of various governments. That reasoning arguably calls for a very strong response since it is a real existential threat to countries. I think that a major issue here however is that governments haven't actually internalized how destructive these threats are, likely because they are using them indiscriminately themselves. "It's just propaganda and only electrons" Admitting the scale and impact of actions like these would be condemning their own actions. We need stronger international understanding that things like this are actually violent attacks aimed at overthrowing a government and that they should be considered potentially acts of war. At the same time however we need to constantly fight to deescalate since this is a new area of conflict and missteps can lead to tragedy. Figuring out responses that work, without increasing attacks, both virtual and physical, is key.

stonethrowaway 2y ago
Let’s start here: what are YOU going to do about it other than high brow HN?
- jmward01 2y ago
  Solid point. Not sure. I barely use social media and I don't think I have shared a meme in my life. Not sure I will change much about what I would do, but I have considered contacting my representatives about things like this. (I have contacted them in the past about other issues) Beyond that I think engaging in constructive discussions about the discussion is an important thing we are missing and I hope I am trying to do that now with responses like this. Maybe.
  - stonethrowaway 2y ago
    Who are your representatives? Do they really represent you?
protomolecule 2y ago
[flagged]
whamlastxmas 2y ago
I think foreign influence on elections is probably much less impactful than many would think. Campaigns spend literally hundreds of millions of dollars for a single election. There was some fear mongering article an election or two ago about Russian spending $100k on influencing tactics and everyone was like “omg they’re swaying the election! My candidate lost because of $100k!” Which to me seems like one of two options are true: Russia knows how to spend money a thousand times more effectively than any presidential campaign we’ve ever seen, and understands how to influence voters better than any American Or The $100k did absolutely nothing and we should go touch some grass
- jfengel 2y ago
  I'm also skeptical about the magnitude of their effect, but I wouldn't entirely discount it, either. The actual campaigns are limited in what they can do. They can buy a lot of advertising that insinuates terrible things about their opponent, but they can only lie so much before they are subject to defamation charges. They can't get away with paying operatives to pretend to be the other side, "concerned" about something the candidate did or said. I don't know how effective such tactics really are. It's entirely possible that they lay a groundwork of negativity: "Sure, that troll on the Internet might have been lying, but maybe that just means that this less-unbelievable thing is actually true." It's impossible to measure. But in an election that's close, it doesn't take much, especially with the Electoral College. Elections swing on a few thousand votes -- a microscopic fraction of the ~150,000,000 votes that are cast. So I concur that the effect is probably small. But I'm not so sure that the small effect is unimportant. It gets to shift things in ways that the campaigns, and even the supposedly non-aligned SuperPACs, can't do.
jfengel 2y ago
Honestly, the appropriate response is to hope that the people most affected by tactics like this will say, "Gee, maybe I shouldn't believe everything I read." I don't think we can really stop outside propaganda. But it's depressing at how much Americans are affected by it. Many prominent Americans have re-posted material that is demonstrably traceable back to Russian troll factories. I don't believe that those are actually the source of our differences, though I do think they exaggerate them. The real problem is that we seem awfully willing to believe the worst in each other, utterly suspending any thought of verifying it. The Russians are pushing us to do what we're already doing to ourselves. Maybe if people see this and take a moment to think, things will get slightly better. But I doubt it.

stonethrowaway 2y ago

Let’s start here: what are YOU going to do about it other than high brow HN?

jmward01 2y ago
Solid point. Not sure. I barely use social media and I don't think I have shared a meme in my life. Not sure I will change much about what I would do, but I have considered contacting my representatives about things like this. (I have contacted them in the past about other issues) Beyond that I think engaging in constructive discussions about the discussion is an important thing we are missing and I hope I am trying to do that now with responses like this. Maybe.
- stonethrowaway 2y ago
  Who are your representatives? Do they really represent you?

protomolecule 2y ago

[flagged]

whamlastxmas 2y ago

I think foreign influence on elections is probably much less impactful than many would think. Campaigns spend literally hundreds of millions of dollars for a single election. There was some fear mongering article an election or two ago about Russian spending $100k on influencing tactics and everyone was like “omg they’re swaying the election! My candidate lost because of $100k!” Which to me seems like one of two options are true: Russia knows how to spend money a thousand times more effectively than any presidential campaign we’ve ever seen, and understands how to influence voters better than any American Or The $100k did absolutely nothing and we should go touch some grass

jfengel 2y ago
I'm also skeptical about the magnitude of their effect, but I wouldn't entirely discount it, either. The actual campaigns are limited in what they can do. They can buy a lot of advertising that insinuates terrible things about their opponent, but they can only lie so much before they are subject to defamation charges. They can't get away with paying operatives to pretend to be the other side, "concerned" about something the candidate did or said. I don't know how effective such tactics really are. It's entirely possible that they lay a groundwork of negativity: "Sure, that troll on the Internet might have been lying, but maybe that just means that this less-unbelievable thing is actually true." It's impossible to measure. But in an election that's close, it doesn't take much, especially with the Electoral College. Elections swing on a few thousand votes -- a microscopic fraction of the ~150,000,000 votes that are cast. So I concur that the effect is probably small. But I'm not so sure that the small effect is unimportant. It gets to shift things in ways that the campaigns, and even the supposedly non-aligned SuperPACs, can't do.

jfengel 2y ago

Honestly, the appropriate response is to hope that the people most affected by tactics like this will say, "Gee, maybe I shouldn't believe everything I read." I don't think we can really stop outside propaganda. But it's depressing at how much Americans are affected by it. Many prominent Americans have re-posted material that is demonstrably traceable back to Russian troll factories. I don't believe that those are actually the source of our differences, though I do think they exaggerate them. The real problem is that we seem awfully willing to believe the worst in each other, utterly suspending any thought of verifying it. The Russians are pushing us to do what we're already doing to ourselves. Maybe if people see this and take a moment to think, things will get slightly better. But I doubt it.