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The answer is pretty straight forward in the sense that the current round of war was initiated (proudly) by Hezbollah, and that while if Hezbollah stops shootin

by yoavm 2y ago

The answer is pretty straight forward in the sense that the current round of war was initiated (proudly) by Hezbollah, and that while if Hezbollah stops shooting Israel would have no business with Lebanon, if Israel stops shooting into Lebanon Hezbollah has no intention of stopping too. Hezbollah wants to destroy Israel (they say that, not me), while Israel has no desire to destroy Lebanon. Hinting at some kind of symmetry here seems weird. Israel invading into Lebanon in the late 1970 was a response to an attack originating there [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_Road_massacre#Israeli_response https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_Road_massacre#Israeli_...

pphysch 2y ago
> Hinting at some kind of symmetry here seems weird. Both sides (Israeli state, and Hezbollah) want to destroy each other. It's a simple symmetry. Conflating the military force with the territory and civilians living on it only obfuscates this.
- yoavm 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - pphysch 2y ago
    Sorry, I can't take you seriously when you equate a clearly defined military-political organization ("Hezbollah") with a broad ethnoreligious group ("Jews"). That's totally absurd and borders on Holocaust denial.
    - yoavm 2y ago
      This is the first time ever someone blames me for Holocaust denial [0], but I'll give you another example then. If someone breaks into your house and tries to kill you, you might want to kill them too, but it's a little funny to say that there's symmetry there because "both want to kill each other!". [0] to remove any doubt, I am not. I'm not sure how you got there, but I would insane to deny an event the took the lives of many from my family.
      - pphysch 2y ago
        > If someone breaks into your house and tries to kill you, you might want to kill them too, but it's a little funny to say that there's symmetry Remind me, between Lebanon or Hezbollah and Israel, which entity is currently occupying significant territories outside its UN-mandated borders?
        nick_ 2y ago
        Lol shh, that much context isn't part of the narrative.
- luckylion 2y ago
  > Both sides (Israeli state, and Hezbollah) want to destroy each other. Have Hezbollah lay down their arms and convert their organization to peaceful gardeners and Israel has no interest in destroying them. Have Israel lay down their arms and focus on peaceful gardening and few Israeli Jews will survive. Such Symmetry. Enlightened Reddit really is something else.
  - someotherperson 2y ago
    > Have Israel lay down their arms and focus on peaceful gardening and few Israeli Jews will survive. That's because the entire notion of Israel as a concept is predicated on it being under constant existential threats. If Hezbollah goes away, then nothing changes in Lebanon: Lebanese identity isn't based on armed resistance. Israeli identity, however, has nothing else going for it besides armed conflict. If conflicts were to go away, so would Israel. Israeli Jews would just be absorbed into whatever local culture they're in, just as they were prior to the formation of Israel (and just like they are outside of Israel). The remaining ones would be the ones engaging in armed conflict -- just as the original groups like Irgun and Lehi were.
    - yoavm 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - someotherperson 2y ago
        An ethno-nationalist state becoming more secular and less extremist? I'm intrigued. Do you believe that the settlements would stop and that Palestinians would be given Israeli citizenship? Would the Palestinians forced out of Israel be allowed to return in this case? Or is this secular, less extremist, conflict-free Israel predicated on Israel continuing to be majority Jewish and with a Jewish government? Edit for your edit: no, nothing to do with Jews. South + North Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine, Singapore, the baltic countries (Estonia etc). Various Arab countries too. In Israel's case the population are made of diaspora which multiplies the effect.
someotherperson 2y ago
> the current round of war Israel has been attacking Hezbollah non-stop in Syria for the last decade[0]. "The current round of war" is quite literally just Hezbollah firing back. It's strange to me how Israel is able to fly sorties around the entire region and it's not considered an escalation, but the moment that we see responses it turns into the other side being the aggressor. > while Israel has no desire to destroy Lebanon The Israeli Dahiya doctrine[1] is literally based on the idea of destroying as much of Lebanon as possible to screw with Hezbollah's support and morale. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_conflict_during_the_Syrian_civil_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_conflict_d... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine
- yoavm 2y ago
  Even the spokesperson of Hezbollah wouldn't say that the current round of war is "literally just Hezbollah firing back". If you're joking then I'm sorry for not catching it, but if not - Hezbollah announced that it's attacking Israel in support of Hamas's attack on Israel. As for your second point, you're pointing to an Israeli strategy of fighting Hezbollah by pressuring Lebanese citizens against it. This has nothing to do with having the demolition of Lebanon as a goal. Edit: I also recommend you read the Hebrew version of the Dahiya doctrine wikipage. As the doctrine is Israeli and in Hebrew originally, it explains it in much greater details. The doctrine has nothing to do with destroying Lebanon.
- ineedasername 2y ago
  That doctrine has worked. 2006 to 2023 is the longest period of time without conflicts on this scale since before 1970. Until 2006 there were significant showdowns at most every 5 or 6 years. The doctrine also is targeting infrastructure for the purpose of denying it to Hezbollah, which is utilizing it to support their fighting. Otherwise, per the wikipedia link on this doctrine, the doctrine has reduction of civilian casualties baked-in: "in the first stage targets were attacked which formed an immediate threat, and in the second stage the population was evacuated for its protection, and only after the evacuation of the population were Hezbollah targets attacked more broadly."
einszwei 2y ago
Hezbollah didn't exist in 1970s. It was founded in 1982 Like the famous quote said "We make peace with our enemies, not our friends" (I can't recall the source) - what is lacking here is diplomacy. To repeat - Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1980s was the catalyst for Hezbollah's rise. While they curbed PLO they created a more formidable adversary.
- yoavm 2y ago
  First, I forgot an 's there - I meant 1970s. Second, unfortunately for Lebanon, Hezbollah wasn't the only terrorist organization growing in it [0]. "The proximate cause of the Israeli invasion was the Coastal Road massacre that took place near Tel Aviv on 11 March 1978" [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_South_Lebanon_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_South_Lebanon_conflict
  - einszwei 2y ago
    Hezbollah was founded in 1982. With benefit of hindsight we can see that while Israel's Lebanon Invasion in 1980s was successful in curbing the PLO who perpetrated the massacre, they created a more formidable adversary in form of Hezbollah.
    - yoavm 2y ago
      [flagged]
- ineedasername 2y ago
  Hezbollah is somewhat of the successor organization of the most militant wings of groups like the PLO and Fatah, so I think it is relevant to speak of Hezbollah as in some sense existing in a nascent form prior to its founding

by yoavm 2y ago

pphysch 2y ago

> Hinting at some kind of symmetry here seems weird. Both sides (Israeli state, and Hezbollah) want to destroy each other. It's a simple symmetry. Conflating the military force with the territory and civilians living on it only obfuscates this.

yoavm 2y ago
[flagged]
- pphysch 2y ago
  Sorry, I can't take you seriously when you equate a clearly defined military-political organization ("Hezbollah") with a broad ethnoreligious group ("Jews"). That's totally absurd and borders on Holocaust denial.
  - yoavm 2y ago
    This is the first time ever someone blames me for Holocaust denial [0], but I'll give you another example then. If someone breaks into your house and tries to kill you, you might want to kill them too, but it's a little funny to say that there's symmetry there because "both want to kill each other!". [0] to remove any doubt, I am not. I'm not sure how you got there, but I would insane to deny an event the took the lives of many from my family.
    - pphysch 2y ago
      > If someone breaks into your house and tries to kill you, you might want to kill them too, but it's a little funny to say that there's symmetry Remind me, between Lebanon or Hezbollah and Israel, which entity is currently occupying significant territories outside its UN-mandated borders?
      - nick_ 2y ago
        Lol shh, that much context isn't part of the narrative.
luckylion 2y ago
> Both sides (Israeli state, and Hezbollah) want to destroy each other. Have Hezbollah lay down their arms and convert their organization to peaceful gardeners and Israel has no interest in destroying them. Have Israel lay down their arms and focus on peaceful gardening and few Israeli Jews will survive. Such Symmetry. Enlightened Reddit really is something else.
- someotherperson 2y ago
  > Have Israel lay down their arms and focus on peaceful gardening and few Israeli Jews will survive. That's because the entire notion of Israel as a concept is predicated on it being under constant existential threats. If Hezbollah goes away, then nothing changes in Lebanon: Lebanese identity isn't based on armed resistance. Israeli identity, however, has nothing else going for it besides armed conflict. If conflicts were to go away, so would Israel. Israeli Jews would just be absorbed into whatever local culture they're in, just as they were prior to the formation of Israel (and just like they are outside of Israel). The remaining ones would be the ones engaging in armed conflict -- just as the original groups like Irgun and Lehi were.
  - yoavm 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - someotherperson 2y ago
      An ethno-nationalist state becoming more secular and less extremist? I'm intrigued. Do you believe that the settlements would stop and that Palestinians would be given Israeli citizenship? Would the Palestinians forced out of Israel be allowed to return in this case? Or is this secular, less extremist, conflict-free Israel predicated on Israel continuing to be majority Jewish and with a Jewish government? Edit for your edit: no, nothing to do with Jews. South + North Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine, Singapore, the baltic countries (Estonia etc). Various Arab countries too. In Israel's case the population are made of diaspora which multiplies the effect.

someotherperson 2y ago

> the current round of war Israel has been attacking Hezbollah non-stop in Syria for the last decade[0]. "The current round of war" is quite literally just Hezbollah firing back. It's strange to me how Israel is able to fly sorties around the entire region and it's not considered an escalation, but the moment that we see responses it turns into the other side being the aggressor. > while Israel has no desire to destroy Lebanon The Israeli Dahiya doctrine[1] is literally based on the idea of destroying as much of Lebanon as possible to screw with Hezbollah's support and morale. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_conflict_during_the_Syrian_civil_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_conflict_d... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

yoavm 2y ago
Even the spokesperson of Hezbollah wouldn't say that the current round of war is "literally just Hezbollah firing back". If you're joking then I'm sorry for not catching it, but if not - Hezbollah announced that it's attacking Israel in support of Hamas's attack on Israel. As for your second point, you're pointing to an Israeli strategy of fighting Hezbollah by pressuring Lebanese citizens against it. This has nothing to do with having the demolition of Lebanon as a goal. Edit: I also recommend you read the Hebrew version of the Dahiya doctrine wikipage. As the doctrine is Israeli and in Hebrew originally, it explains it in much greater details. The doctrine has nothing to do with destroying Lebanon.
ineedasername 2y ago
That doctrine has worked. 2006 to 2023 is the longest period of time without conflicts on this scale since before 1970. Until 2006 there were significant showdowns at most every 5 or 6 years. The doctrine also is targeting infrastructure for the purpose of denying it to Hezbollah, which is utilizing it to support their fighting. Otherwise, per the wikipedia link on this doctrine, the doctrine has reduction of civilian casualties baked-in: "in the first stage targets were attacked which formed an immediate threat, and in the second stage the population was evacuated for its protection, and only after the evacuation of the population were Hezbollah targets attacked more broadly."

einszwei 2y ago

Hezbollah didn't exist in 1970s. It was founded in 1982 Like the famous quote said "We make peace with our enemies, not our friends" (I can't recall the source) - what is lacking here is diplomacy. To repeat - Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1980s was the catalyst for Hezbollah's rise. While they curbed PLO they created a more formidable adversary.

yoavm 2y ago
First, I forgot an 's there - I meant 1970s. Second, unfortunately for Lebanon, Hezbollah wasn't the only terrorist organization growing in it [0]. "The proximate cause of the Israeli invasion was the Coastal Road massacre that took place near Tel Aviv on 11 March 1978" [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_South_Lebanon_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_South_Lebanon_conflict
- einszwei 2y ago
  Hezbollah was founded in 1982. With benefit of hindsight we can see that while Israel's Lebanon Invasion in 1980s was successful in curbing the PLO who perpetrated the massacre, they created a more formidable adversary in form of Hezbollah.
  - yoavm 2y ago
    [flagged]
ineedasername 2y ago
Hezbollah is somewhat of the successor organization of the most militant wings of groups like the PLO and Fatah, so I think it is relevant to speak of Hezbollah as in some sense existing in a nascent form prior to its founding