5 ms·

it has four, going on five, esoteric proper nouns in one sentence. it's not hard to parse, but it isn't something I love reading either. I'm reminded of the Il

it has four, going on five, esoteric proper nouns in one sentence. it's not hard to parse, but it isn't something I love reading either. I'm reminded of the Illuminatus Trilogy, which at times is barely more than proper nouns arranged into sentences at random. like Finnegan's Wake but with more flower power

aredox 2y ago
It reminds me of opening the bible - especially the books in the old testament- or any old compendium of legends from ancient civilisations.
PhasmaFelis 2y ago
> it has four, going on five, esoteric proper nouns in one sentence. it's not hard to parse, but it isn't something I love reading either. Even so. If the sentence was something like "Kowalski's Mosquito soared high above the Führerbunker, Hitler's final redoubt in Berlin," no one would find that problematic. McCaffrey's sentence is only troubling if you've already assumed that made-up names are inherently bad writing.
- bmacho 2y ago
  Made-up names are bad to read for me too. I don't like too many things in my head with unfamiliar names. I can't think of things with unfamiliar names, and it bothers me.
  - PhasmaFelis 2y ago
    That sounds very unpleasant. I'm sorry. With all respect, though, I think we can agree that that's an issue with the reader, not the writer? If I read a novel with a lot of Vietnamese characters and locations, say, I might well have some difficulty telling them apart, but that doesn't mean that Vietnamese names are bad writing.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - sideshowb 2y ago
      You seem to be suggesting that it's good writing style to make your reader struggle as if with a foreign language?
      - PhasmaFelis 2y ago
        My original example was going to be, a young person reading an adult book with a large vocabulary. I decided that might come off as rude, so I changed it, and maybe lost some impact. Put more bluntly: having a reading disability does not obligate all authors to write to your reading level.
        sideshowb 2y ago
        I guess I don't interpret bmacho's comment as relating to disability, just a general objection to excessive weird words a la https://xkcd.com/483/ https://xkcd.com/483/
        Suppafly 2y ago
        >Put more bluntly: having a reading disability does not obligate all authors to write to your reading level. This, although it's not even always a disability related issue. Sometimes things in life aren't made for you, and you'll be happier understanding that. It's similar to complaining that an advanced mathematics textbook wasn't understandable given your baseline understanding of maths. It's not being written for you.
      - CamperBob2 2y ago
        Ever read A Clockwork Orange? Guessing that didn't go over well with you.
        sideshowb 2y ago
        Oh that was great. In no small part because Burgess's slang is rooted in real etymology so it's not entirely a foreign language so much as creative use of our own. Snowcrash is similar in this respect.
  - Jedd 2y ago
    > Made-up names are bad to read for me too. Aren't all names made-up?
    - permo-w 2y ago
      call them new names then
- mannykannot 2y ago
  The thing about the alternative you offer is that none of the names in it are made-up, other than that Kowalski may be a fictional character. There is nothing inherently wrong with made-up names, and some genres will require more than others, but I suspect that sentences in the style of McCaffrey's are partly intended to draw in the reader who feels, vaguely and probably subconsciously, as someone who has the inside scoop on esoteric knowledge from having deduced what sort of entities these names denote. To be clear, I am not immune to the effect, and it can be pleasant in small doses if the rest of the story is engaging.
  - PhasmaFelis 2y ago
    That maybe very well be true, but it still doesn't indicate any problem with the McCaffrey sentence. Also note that it's the start of the second chapter, so some of those nouns may have been introduced already.
    - mannykannot 2y ago
      My first paragraph is very well true. The second one says "there is nothing inherently wrong with made-up names", which seems to be in agreement with what you hold to be true. I am also entirely in agreement with the position that no significant criticism of the author can be made from a single sentence, especially when presented without context.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  >McCaffrey's sentence is only troubling if you've already assumed that made-up names are inherently bad writing. This is honestly the core component of most criticisms of genre fiction as far as I've seen.
rectang 2y ago
Compare with the first sentence of The Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien: > There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.
- setgree 2y ago
  except for 'Arda', every new word is defined/clarified. I'm a huge LOTR fan and a moderate Silmarillion fan, and I can see how maybe Tolkien is guilty of this 'new words for familiar things' problem.. I guess when Tolkien does it, I'm enchanted, e.g. the first non-introduction line in _Fellowship_: > When Mr Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton. To me this immediately evokes: we're in a foreign land, but it's going to be vaguely small-town England in its manners and interests.
dannyobrien 2y ago
Not surprisingly, Robert Anton Wilson, one half of the writing team behind Illuminatus, was a huge fan and scholar of James Joyce. Indeed in the first volume, the character Epicene Wildeblood writes, a damning dismissal of what is obviously meant to be the trilogy itself, describing it as "a very pretentious imitation of Faulkner and Joyce"[1]. I can't think of anything more Joycean. (Epicene doesn't think much of science fiction either, even when she transitions into a more relaxed Mary Margaret Wildeblood in the later Schrodinger's Cat trilogy.) [1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Illuminatus https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Illuminatu...
thaumasiotes 2y ago
> it has four, going on five, esoteric proper nouns in one sentence. F'lar is unexplained within that sentence. Mnementh is also unexplained, but sounds like a constellation. Fax and the High Reaches are explicitly marked as the names of a person and a place. Those are going to appear as proper nouns no matter what genre you're reading. It's the only possible way to do things. This is like complaining that Robin Hood's primary antagonist is the Sheriff of Nottingham. What's the complaint?

aredox 2y ago

It reminds me of opening the bible - especially the books in the old testament- or any old compendium of legends from ancient civilisations.

PhasmaFelis 2y ago

> it has four, going on five, esoteric proper nouns in one sentence. it's not hard to parse, but it isn't something I love reading either. Even so. If the sentence was something like "Kowalski's Mosquito soared high above the Führerbunker, Hitler's final redoubt in Berlin," no one would find that problematic. McCaffrey's sentence is only troubling if you've already assumed that made-up names are inherently bad writing.

bmacho 2y ago
Made-up names are bad to read for me too. I don't like too many things in my head with unfamiliar names. I can't think of things with unfamiliar names, and it bothers me.
- PhasmaFelis 2y ago
  That sounds very unpleasant. I'm sorry. With all respect, though, I think we can agree that that's an issue with the reader, not the writer? If I read a novel with a lot of Vietnamese characters and locations, say, I might well have some difficulty telling them apart, but that doesn't mean that Vietnamese names are bad writing.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - sideshowb 2y ago
    You seem to be suggesting that it's good writing style to make your reader struggle as if with a foreign language?
    - PhasmaFelis 2y ago
      My original example was going to be, a young person reading an adult book with a large vocabulary. I decided that might come off as rude, so I changed it, and maybe lost some impact. Put more bluntly: having a reading disability does not obligate all authors to write to your reading level.
      - sideshowb 2y ago
        I guess I don't interpret bmacho's comment as relating to disability, just a general objection to excessive weird words a la https://xkcd.com/483/ https://xkcd.com/483/
      - Suppafly 2y ago
        >Put more bluntly: having a reading disability does not obligate all authors to write to your reading level. This, although it's not even always a disability related issue. Sometimes things in life aren't made for you, and you'll be happier understanding that. It's similar to complaining that an advanced mathematics textbook wasn't understandable given your baseline understanding of maths. It's not being written for you.
    - CamperBob2 2y ago
      Ever read A Clockwork Orange? Guessing that didn't go over well with you.
      - sideshowb 2y ago
        Oh that was great. In no small part because Burgess's slang is rooted in real etymology so it's not entirely a foreign language so much as creative use of our own. Snowcrash is similar in this respect.
- Jedd 2y ago
  > Made-up names are bad to read for me too. Aren't all names made-up?
  - permo-w 2y ago
    call them new names then
mannykannot 2y ago
The thing about the alternative you offer is that none of the names in it are made-up, other than that Kowalski may be a fictional character. There is nothing inherently wrong with made-up names, and some genres will require more than others, but I suspect that sentences in the style of McCaffrey's are partly intended to draw in the reader who feels, vaguely and probably subconsciously, as someone who has the inside scoop on esoteric knowledge from having deduced what sort of entities these names denote. To be clear, I am not immune to the effect, and it can be pleasant in small doses if the rest of the story is engaging.
- PhasmaFelis 2y ago
  That maybe very well be true, but it still doesn't indicate any problem with the McCaffrey sentence. Also note that it's the start of the second chapter, so some of those nouns may have been introduced already.
  - mannykannot 2y ago
    My first paragraph is very well true. The second one says "there is nothing inherently wrong with made-up names", which seems to be in agreement with what you hold to be true. I am also entirely in agreement with the position that no significant criticism of the author can be made from a single sentence, especially when presented without context.
Suppafly 2y ago
>McCaffrey's sentence is only troubling if you've already assumed that made-up names are inherently bad writing. This is honestly the core component of most criticisms of genre fiction as far as I've seen.

rectang 2y ago

Compare with the first sentence of The Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien: > There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.

setgree 2y ago
except for 'Arda', every new word is defined/clarified. I'm a huge LOTR fan and a moderate Silmarillion fan, and I can see how maybe Tolkien is guilty of this 'new words for familiar things' problem.. I guess when Tolkien does it, I'm enchanted, e.g. the first non-introduction line in _Fellowship_: > When Mr Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton. To me this immediately evokes: we're in a foreign land, but it's going to be vaguely small-town England in its manners and interests.

dannyobrien 2y ago

Not surprisingly, Robert Anton Wilson, one half of the writing team behind Illuminatus, was a huge fan and scholar of James Joyce. Indeed in the first volume, the character Epicene Wildeblood writes, a damning dismissal of what is obviously meant to be the trilogy itself, describing it as "a very pretentious imitation of Faulkner and Joyce"[1]. I can't think of anything more Joycean. (Epicene doesn't think much of science fiction either, even when she transitions into a more relaxed Mary Margaret Wildeblood in the later Schrodinger's Cat trilogy.) [1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Illuminatus https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Illuminatu...

thaumasiotes 2y ago

> it has four, going on five, esoteric proper nouns in one sentence. F'lar is unexplained within that sentence. Mnementh is also unexplained, but sounds like a constellation. Fax and the High Reaches are explicitly marked as the names of a person and a place. Those are going to appear as proper nouns no matter what genre you're reading. It's the only possible way to do things. This is like complaining that Robin Hood's primary antagonist is the Sheriff of Nottingham. What's the complaint?