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"Let's hope more Apple Mac owners are also learning to take important security steps -- such as installing antivirus protection." This is the worst possible st

"Let's hope more Apple Mac owners are also learning to take important security steps -- such as installing antivirus protection." This is the worst possible step to take. When I switch someone over to Mac I take the opportunity to recalibrate how they see their computer as secure. I teach them to be more aware of what they are doing and how potential viruses could infect them. I find this is 100x more effective than installing antivirus software which is shit most of the time and instills a fake sense of security. I had a family member who would always click "OK" whenever a window popped up in Windows or would blindly enter in their password because they figured Windows was just annoying them. When they got their Mac I taught them that whenever OS X opened up a window asking for their password or asked them if they really wanted to open up a file, they should freak the hell out and be 100% sure of why that box appeared. I actually got a couple of phone calls from them asking if certain popups were OK. Sure this was annoying at first but after a week or two they started to understand why these things were happening. The great benefit of changing their way of thinking and making security a priority was that when Flashback hit I told them that disabling plugins was one of the best ways to prevent from being infected and they immediately accepted this. Macs are not 100% secure. No one should be under any delusions of this. But teaching people why they are not secure is the solution. Not hiding behind POS antivirus software.

calinet6 14y ago
Great solution. This is the right attitude toward security in any case, Mac or PC. You can't neglect safe driving just because your car has air bags, yet I see that exact problem on computers with anti-virus all the time. Macs actually do make it easier because they have a pretty good track record of not "crying wolf" with things such as password prompts or security warnings. Most of the pop-ups are justified and infrequent. Macs have never been 100% secure. No computer is. Apple pulling this marketing has nothing to do with a reduction in security and everything to do with covering their legal butts as their platform becomes more popular and more targeted. It's still the user's responsibility to keep themselves safe in the end, even with a decently secure OS.
idspispopd 14y ago
Sophos and Kapersky like to allude that their software provides all the protection a user requires. Which I agree is the wrong way to approach security. They have also alluded to the idea that their software would have protected systems against the flashback malware, which is of course false. Tediously, antivirus software provides a consistent vector into a machine, indeed as seen on Windows, the antivirus software is merely a consideration for the virus writer. 10.8 will feature a number of security enhancements which make the statement 'Apple is starting to take security seriously', an understatement designed to deliberately instil a sense of doubt. Two such examples are the improved kernel address space layout randomisation and the new signed-only code default aka 'gatekeeper'.
hcarvalhoalves 14y ago
All the noise the media is doing around this case is to actually drive a demand for antivirus software for Mac. You don't see any article mentioning installing software from trusted sources (like Mac App Store), digital signing, configuring firewall, keeping software up to date, etc. Their whole point is to compare the Mac platform to the Windows one, so they can conclude that installing antivirus software is the obvious choice.
- cldrope 14y ago
  Thanks for recognizing one of the biggest downfalls of it. They could be opening the Apple platforms for massive "protect yourself" scare sales.
- josteink 14y ago
  You don't see any article mentioning installing software from trusted sources (like Mac App Store), digital signing, configuring firewall, keeping software up to date, etc. Do you see anyone mentioning that when it comes to Windows-based articles? If not, why complain that it's not mentioned here?
- idspispopd 14y ago
  The article is basically an advertorial. It could have provided helpful information and quoted security researchers who don't stand to gain financially. Instead it assembles quotes from vested interests who imply that their product is necessary.
firefoxman1 14y ago
I agree, nothing is as secure as a well-aware user. I removed a virus for someone last week and when I asked her why she didn't have antivirus software installed, she said "Oh, Cox has their own antivirus running through the wires." ...Cox provides a free antivirus that you can download. But that sense of security that both ISP's and antivirus companies provide is the reason so many people still get infected.
barista 14y ago
>> When I switch someone over to Mac I take the opportunity Why only after switching? Is it not simpler to teach them these before switching? Wonder how much effect it will have if they did all those things regarding being careful clicking buttons and protecting personal information without switching.
- reidmain 14y ago
  The problem was that they were so ingrained with the Windows experience that they were resistant to change. They had their way of doing things and whenever I presented them with alternatives they would refuse to change, no matter how I presented it. Textbook examples were things like switching from Internet Explorer 6 to Firefox. They just would refuse to adapt. When I switched them over to Mac they treated it like a newborn baby. They wanted my input on everything. They were so much more receptive to change because they had never used a Mac before. Human beings are just so resistant to change and when they were learning how to use a computer in the 90s the user experience could be really grating. It seems like they just latched onto what worked and refused to let go.
  - Mythbusters 14y ago
    Whoever introduced computers to these folks probably wasn't careful to tell them what to be careful about. As long as people mess with the local computer, it's possible to recover (in most cases) But being on the internet is whole other thing. I wouldn't necessarily blame Microsoft here. If anything, I feel much more comfortable letting my dad use windows 7. Microsoft massively improved their Security record after a few embarrassing incidents with Windows XP. My only message to my dad was: as long as you don't download anything, it's relatively easy to stay away from viruses.
- neohaven 14y ago
  Because then the user is ready to accept a change in workflow. They're getting an OS they don't understand anyway. They're "starting from 0", in a way. It also helps that OS X doesn't bother you all that much with it unless it's actually important.
novalis 14y ago
What you post is fascinating, that is why I am asking all these coming questions. Are you able, in good conscience of course, to point out antivirus software that would not qualify as "POS"? Do you think that installing said not-"POS" antiviral software would be constructive or a big no no, at any given time ? (if they really exist and based on your own deep behavioral security know how, of course, that would be of great validity) This "switch" you talk about, is it restricted to members of your family that you refer to in your post, and if so, are they older than you, or younger than you ? Is it a quick process ? Is it a deep life/computational altering moment for the intervened party? Do tell :) Do they follow your "plugins off" recommendations to the letter, or do some of the "switchy's" stray from the path at times ? Thank you in advance. Any and all details you post would be very helpful to enable a complete picture to be formed. For deep insight is only a post away, at last.
- reidmain 14y ago
  I haven't used antivirus software in well over a decade and I will no longer instruct anyone to install it. I have had no good experiences with antivirus software and from what I have read over the last decade they seem to stop only the most flagrantly obvious viruses out there. These same viruses are easily stopped by teaching safe browsing techniques and running web browsers that auto-update with plug-ins disabled. Antivirus software gives at best a false security blanket. I've advised dozens of friends and family members over the years. The ages range from 12-80. It is typically not a quick process because everyone has questions. But I see this as a good thing because that is how you learn. I try not to ever give them the answer and just step them through the process. Most of the time they come across the solution themselves they just need someone nodding their head to get that confidence to continue. I'm not sure if it is a life-altering moment for them. Only had a couple switchers so far and I have had no complaints. Plug-in blocking in Chrome is so seamless that they don't see it as a hassle at all when they realize how it protects them.
  - novalis 14y ago
    I think enabling better computing, independently of entry level know-how, to be something that sometimes has amazing effects. That is why I asked if you had that happen. I still remember when a neighbour came by and explained to me some Basic on the spectrum and how that led to me wanting to buy a motorola assembler book some years later. And how that turned me to being interested in softice and all that came later... that is why I asked. I mostly like v8 because it runs three.js stuff crazy fast.
nodata 14y ago
> "Let's hope more Apple Mac owners are also learning to take important security steps -- such as installing antivirus protection." > This is the worst possible step to take. What? He's recommending security steps, i.e. layers. What you wrote (education) is another layer. Users need anti-virus too. Recommending anti-virus as a layer is not the worst possible step to take. It's a better step than having an uneducated user with no anti-virus. It's not as good as an educated layer with anti-virus. As a side note, much of the software available for the Mac is "download from some http website that your friend recommended". Also not ideal, which is where the Mac Store is meant to come in.
- praptak 14y ago
  I agree that calling it "the worst possible step" is an overstatement but antivirus has a huge irremovable drawback: it's basic operating principle is "enumerating badness", a known security antipattern.

calinet6 14y ago

Great solution. This is the right attitude toward security in any case, Mac or PC. You can't neglect safe driving just because your car has air bags, yet I see that exact problem on computers with anti-virus all the time. Macs actually do make it easier because they have a pretty good track record of not "crying wolf" with things such as password prompts or security warnings. Most of the pop-ups are justified and infrequent. Macs have never been 100% secure. No computer is. Apple pulling this marketing has nothing to do with a reduction in security and everything to do with covering their legal butts as their platform becomes more popular and more targeted. It's still the user's responsibility to keep themselves safe in the end, even with a decently secure OS.

idspispopd 14y ago

Sophos and Kapersky like to allude that their software provides all the protection a user requires. Which I agree is the wrong way to approach security. They have also alluded to the idea that their software would have protected systems against the flashback malware, which is of course false. Tediously, antivirus software provides a consistent vector into a machine, indeed as seen on Windows, the antivirus software is merely a consideration for the virus writer. 10.8 will feature a number of security enhancements which make the statement 'Apple is starting to take security seriously', an understatement designed to deliberately instil a sense of doubt. Two such examples are the improved kernel address space layout randomisation and the new signed-only code default aka 'gatekeeper'.

hcarvalhoalves 14y ago

All the noise the media is doing around this case is to actually drive a demand for antivirus software for Mac. You don't see any article mentioning installing software from trusted sources (like Mac App Store), digital signing, configuring firewall, keeping software up to date, etc. Their whole point is to compare the Mac platform to the Windows one, so they can conclude that installing antivirus software is the obvious choice.

cldrope 14y ago
Thanks for recognizing one of the biggest downfalls of it. They could be opening the Apple platforms for massive "protect yourself" scare sales.
josteink 14y ago
You don't see any article mentioning installing software from trusted sources (like Mac App Store), digital signing, configuring firewall, keeping software up to date, etc. Do you see anyone mentioning that when it comes to Windows-based articles? If not, why complain that it's not mentioned here?
idspispopd 14y ago
The article is basically an advertorial. It could have provided helpful information and quoted security researchers who don't stand to gain financially. Instead it assembles quotes from vested interests who imply that their product is necessary.

firefoxman1 14y ago

I agree, nothing is as secure as a well-aware user. I removed a virus for someone last week and when I asked her why she didn't have antivirus software installed, she said "Oh, Cox has their own antivirus running through the wires." ...Cox provides a free antivirus that you can download. But that sense of security that both ISP's and antivirus companies provide is the reason so many people still get infected.

barista 14y ago

>> When I switch someone over to Mac I take the opportunity Why only after switching? Is it not simpler to teach them these before switching? Wonder how much effect it will have if they did all those things regarding being careful clicking buttons and protecting personal information without switching.

reidmain 14y ago
The problem was that they were so ingrained with the Windows experience that they were resistant to change. They had their way of doing things and whenever I presented them with alternatives they would refuse to change, no matter how I presented it. Textbook examples were things like switching from Internet Explorer 6 to Firefox. They just would refuse to adapt. When I switched them over to Mac they treated it like a newborn baby. They wanted my input on everything. They were so much more receptive to change because they had never used a Mac before. Human beings are just so resistant to change and when they were learning how to use a computer in the 90s the user experience could be really grating. It seems like they just latched onto what worked and refused to let go.
- Mythbusters 14y ago
  Whoever introduced computers to these folks probably wasn't careful to tell them what to be careful about. As long as people mess with the local computer, it's possible to recover (in most cases) But being on the internet is whole other thing. I wouldn't necessarily blame Microsoft here. If anything, I feel much more comfortable letting my dad use windows 7. Microsoft massively improved their Security record after a few embarrassing incidents with Windows XP. My only message to my dad was: as long as you don't download anything, it's relatively easy to stay away from viruses.
neohaven 14y ago
Because then the user is ready to accept a change in workflow. They're getting an OS they don't understand anyway. They're "starting from 0", in a way. It also helps that OS X doesn't bother you all that much with it unless it's actually important.

novalis 14y ago

What you post is fascinating, that is why I am asking all these coming questions. Are you able, in good conscience of course, to point out antivirus software that would not qualify as "POS"? Do you think that installing said not-"POS" antiviral software would be constructive or a big no no, at any given time ? (if they really exist and based on your own deep behavioral security know how, of course, that would be of great validity) This "switch" you talk about, is it restricted to members of your family that you refer to in your post, and if so, are they older than you, or younger than you ? Is it a quick process ? Is it a deep life/computational altering moment for the intervened party? Do tell :) Do they follow your "plugins off" recommendations to the letter, or do some of the "switchy's" stray from the path at times ? Thank you in advance. Any and all details you post would be very helpful to enable a complete picture to be formed. For deep insight is only a post away, at last.

reidmain 14y ago
I haven't used antivirus software in well over a decade and I will no longer instruct anyone to install it. I have had no good experiences with antivirus software and from what I have read over the last decade they seem to stop only the most flagrantly obvious viruses out there. These same viruses are easily stopped by teaching safe browsing techniques and running web browsers that auto-update with plug-ins disabled. Antivirus software gives at best a false security blanket. I've advised dozens of friends and family members over the years. The ages range from 12-80. It is typically not a quick process because everyone has questions. But I see this as a good thing because that is how you learn. I try not to ever give them the answer and just step them through the process. Most of the time they come across the solution themselves they just need someone nodding their head to get that confidence to continue. I'm not sure if it is a life-altering moment for them. Only had a couple switchers so far and I have had no complaints. Plug-in blocking in Chrome is so seamless that they don't see it as a hassle at all when they realize how it protects them.
- novalis 14y ago
  I think enabling better computing, independently of entry level know-how, to be something that sometimes has amazing effects. That is why I asked if you had that happen. I still remember when a neighbour came by and explained to me some Basic on the spectrum and how that led to me wanting to buy a motorola assembler book some years later. And how that turned me to being interested in softice and all that came later... that is why I asked. I mostly like v8 because it runs three.js stuff crazy fast.

nodata 14y ago

> "Let's hope more Apple Mac owners are also learning to take important security steps -- such as installing antivirus protection." > This is the worst possible step to take. What? He's recommending security steps, i.e. layers. What you wrote (education) is another layer. Users need anti-virus too. Recommending anti-virus as a layer is not the worst possible step to take. It's a better step than having an uneducated user with no anti-virus. It's not as good as an educated layer with anti-virus. As a side note, much of the software available for the Mac is "download from some http website that your friend recommended". Also not ideal, which is where the Mac Store is meant to come in.

praptak 14y ago
I agree that calling it "the worst possible step" is an overstatement but antivirus has a huge irremovable drawback: it's basic operating principle is "enumerating badness", a known security antipattern.