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Alternatively, after experiencing other modalities of friendship, you may realize that some of the men you're "friends" with are actually just bullying you, and

Alternatively, after experiencing other modalities of friendship, you may realize that some of the men you're "friends" with are actually just bullying you, and dump them. I imagine that when you stand up to them, your frenemy would say, jeez, when did you get so sensitive. I've been mocking and undermining you for years, so what's the problem? Men's friendships often involve good natured jabs, but sometimes insecure men will use that as cover to treat you like a doormat. Life is too short to be fodder for their ego. Also, it's not generally true that you'll lose access to one modality of friendship if you learn another. People move between different friend groups and subcultures all the time and code switch as necessary. (I don't doubt that some people have trouble with this, however.)

dyauspitr 2y ago
Eh I enjoy a constant back and forth, makes me feel at home and nothing is left unsaid. I know at least some of my friends I’ve known for decades would come very close to giving their life for me as would I. You sound like someone that has had a lifetime of acquaintances.
- maxbond 2y ago
  That's total projection I'm afraid. I think you're assuming that, if I have an experience in any way dissimilar, I must not have friends? I'm just guessing because this is a non sequitur. Thankfully, that's not the case. To be clear, it's exceedingly rare that I've had to kick people out of my life. And if you say that you and your friends engage in mutual banter, then I believe it. I've enjoyed some banter in my time. It's not clear to me if you're saying there's a pattern in your life of friends becoming "too sensitive," but if there is, I do think that's something to interrogate.
- standardUser 2y ago
  Who needs a "back and forth" when you can just say what you mean. I give my male friends big, long hugs and tell them I love them. If there's a problem, I talk to them about it. If I fuck up, I sincerely apologize. Not that you can't do all that AND give each other some shit. But if you aren't doing all that I suggest giving it a shot.
  - maxbond 2y ago
    I think there's a few things at work: 1. Men are socialized to only be emotive in aggressive or masculine ways. Expressing vulnerability is met with mockery until you learn to stop doing it. 2. Sometimes people don't know how to communicate in a way that's effective without being tactless. Sometimes they think such communication isn't possible, expressed in cliches like "truth hurts", "I'm just showing you tough love" or "you need to grow a thicker skin." (Sometimes this works, but in my experience it's actually a lot easier to communicate if you don't express yourself in a way that's personal and insulting, it distracts from what you actually want to discuss. My policy for expressing uncomfortable criticism is, "speak plainly and clearly, drop the superlatives, and get it done sooner than later.")
    - standardUser 2y ago
      > 1. Men are socialized to only be emotive in aggressive or masculine ways. Some men, absolutely. Most men? Maybe. But I removed those kinds of people from my life years ago. The few men I involuntarily socialize with are coworkers, mostly programmers, and they tend to be on the less macho side generally, thank god.
      - maxbond 2y ago
        To be clear I just meant there was pressure to behave that way, not that it's destiny.
      - dyauspitr 2y ago
        I removed the emotive kind. I’m not comfortable around them and I find them to be heavily involved with their identity and defining themselves and less about building things and going places. These are obviously broad strokes but anecdotally they have generally held true.
standardUser 2y ago
> Men's friendships often involve good natured jabs It's true, they often do. And I find it to be one of the least valuable and most insecure aspects of friendship. My best relationships with any gender, romantic or otherwise, have involved little or no negging and a whole lot of honest communication and building each other up.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  I completely disagree. Jabs are a way of being able to tell someone something without bottling it up or getting too serious about it. It’s infinitely better than sitting down and “having a talk about it” which sours the relationship. They’re invaluable and without them relationships feel shallow.
  - maxbond 2y ago
    There are many other ways to accomplish that. Eg, using other forms of humor to blunt your remarks. Jabs do sour relationships with people who aren't open to being spoken to in that way. Your previous comment about people becoming "too sensitive" makes it sound like some of your relationships may have soured in that way (speculation, I don't know your life; if you deny it, I'll believe you). Being tactful means feeling out the vibe, jabbing at people who appreciate it, and taking another tact with people who don't. The world isn't dualistic. There are more kinds of people and more ways of interacting than are dreamt of in your philosophy. If there are people you don't get along with and don't want to be friends with, that's fine, live your best life. It's the same way for me, and GP said the same as well. But understand that's a choice you've made because it's right for you, not something objective or universal, and try not to judge others for making a different choice.

dyauspitr 2y ago

Eh I enjoy a constant back and forth, makes me feel at home and nothing is left unsaid. I know at least some of my friends I’ve known for decades would come very close to giving their life for me as would I. You sound like someone that has had a lifetime of acquaintances.

maxbond 2y ago
That's total projection I'm afraid. I think you're assuming that, if I have an experience in any way dissimilar, I must not have friends? I'm just guessing because this is a non sequitur. Thankfully, that's not the case. To be clear, it's exceedingly rare that I've had to kick people out of my life. And if you say that you and your friends engage in mutual banter, then I believe it. I've enjoyed some banter in my time. It's not clear to me if you're saying there's a pattern in your life of friends becoming "too sensitive," but if there is, I do think that's something to interrogate.
standardUser 2y ago
Who needs a "back and forth" when you can just say what you mean. I give my male friends big, long hugs and tell them I love them. If there's a problem, I talk to them about it. If I fuck up, I sincerely apologize. Not that you can't do all that AND give each other some shit. But if you aren't doing all that I suggest giving it a shot.
- maxbond 2y ago
  I think there's a few things at work: 1. Men are socialized to only be emotive in aggressive or masculine ways. Expressing vulnerability is met with mockery until you learn to stop doing it. 2. Sometimes people don't know how to communicate in a way that's effective without being tactless. Sometimes they think such communication isn't possible, expressed in cliches like "truth hurts", "I'm just showing you tough love" or "you need to grow a thicker skin." (Sometimes this works, but in my experience it's actually a lot easier to communicate if you don't express yourself in a way that's personal and insulting, it distracts from what you actually want to discuss. My policy for expressing uncomfortable criticism is, "speak plainly and clearly, drop the superlatives, and get it done sooner than later.")
  - standardUser 2y ago
    > 1. Men are socialized to only be emotive in aggressive or masculine ways. Some men, absolutely. Most men? Maybe. But I removed those kinds of people from my life years ago. The few men I involuntarily socialize with are coworkers, mostly programmers, and they tend to be on the less macho side generally, thank god.
    - maxbond 2y ago
      To be clear I just meant there was pressure to behave that way, not that it's destiny.
    - dyauspitr 2y ago
      I removed the emotive kind. I’m not comfortable around them and I find them to be heavily involved with their identity and defining themselves and less about building things and going places. These are obviously broad strokes but anecdotally they have generally held true.

standardUser 2y ago

> Men's friendships often involve good natured jabs It's true, they often do. And I find it to be one of the least valuable and most insecure aspects of friendship. My best relationships with any gender, romantic or otherwise, have involved little or no negging and a whole lot of honest communication and building each other up.

dyauspitr 2y ago
I completely disagree. Jabs are a way of being able to tell someone something without bottling it up or getting too serious about it. It’s infinitely better than sitting down and “having a talk about it” which sours the relationship. They’re invaluable and without them relationships feel shallow.
- maxbond 2y ago
  There are many other ways to accomplish that. Eg, using other forms of humor to blunt your remarks. Jabs do sour relationships with people who aren't open to being spoken to in that way. Your previous comment about people becoming "too sensitive" makes it sound like some of your relationships may have soured in that way (speculation, I don't know your life; if you deny it, I'll believe you). Being tactful means feeling out the vibe, jabbing at people who appreciate it, and taking another tact with people who don't. The world isn't dualistic. There are more kinds of people and more ways of interacting than are dreamt of in your philosophy. If there are people you don't get along with and don't want to be friends with, that's fine, live your best life. It's the same way for me, and GP said the same as well. But understand that's a choice you've made because it's right for you, not something objective or universal, and try not to judge others for making a different choice.