5 ms·

I'm in a similar situation, but no hardware involved. Just the flexibility to juggle the kids at pick up times is godsend. I have much better no-interruption s

by keyle 2y ago

I'm in a similar situation, but no hardware involved. Just the flexibility to juggle the kids at pick up times is godsend. I have much better no-interruption stretches of programming which yields better results overall.

hellweaver666 2y ago
Same here, thanks to me working from home my wife has been able to return to work (she's a teacher) which has given us more income (and less costs!) and massively improved our financial position!
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Is it possible that these RTO policies are actually meant to select for younger people and force others to resign? After all older people have more responsibilities outside of work like children and cannot work through Amazon’s meat grinder or do things like support brutal on call cycles. They’re also the ones with bigger commutes and other barriers to RTO, since they probably live away from city cores to buy houses and have space for a family. Meanwhile young people who live in the middle of downtowns in apartments that are near their work probably are unaffected by this kind of change.
- linotype 2y ago
  Going into the office still sucks even if it’s right next door. The noise from open office floor plans isn’t healthy.
  - zer0zzz 2y ago
    My previous job actually had nice offices, and a pretty cohesive team culture. I still think work from home 2-3 days a week would have been better just to avoid the commute.
- JambalayaJimbo 2y ago
  Career focused younger people have also been adversely affected by wfh for the last few years in a big way. All the mentorship and networking opportunities have withered. The non career focused younger people are living it up though.
  - cebert 2y ago
    What prevents them from networking remotely and scheduling coffee chats? That seems like a weak excuse.
    - TuringNYC 2y ago
      It works to an extent. True bonding comes from being shoulder to shoulder in extreme situations under shared duress.
      - NikolaNovak 2y ago
        As long as we understand that "true bonding" is preciously close to "no true Scotsman galaxy" :-) Let's stop pretending that remote work is new. I've worked remotely on and off from the beginning of my career. Majority of my mentors have been remote, at least two of whom I've never met "on real life" - one of whom shared tremendous technical experience over 18 months we worked together three provinces away, other who has taught me corporate life and consulting skills from four provinces away (I'm in Canada, think states:). I've spent four years as ops manager recently on a troubled project and I agree thay extreme situations under shared duress can build a specific, very strong kind of bond (not the only kind, mind you!). It's just that physical presence is completely orthogonal to it. I have a hard time believing all this concern is for "young generation and their social and mentoring opportunities". Young generation grew up with remote and social networking infused in their lives (for better or for worse, separate conversation :)! If a senior person doesn't know how to mentor or communicate remote, let's be upfront on that and discuss it openly and coach them. But let's not blame the "juniors" for that :-).
      - JadeNB 2y ago
        > It works to an extent. True bonding comes from being shoulder to shoulder in extreme situations under shared duress. People say this, but "this is the kind of true bonding experiences with which I'm familiar" isn't the same as "this is the only way true bonding can occur." I'm certainly old enough to remember the dismissive scoffing in the '90s that true friendships are made only in person, not with people online.
- maeil 2y ago
  Do you know of any statistics that back this? I could see it be the other way around, or various factors balancing each other out. From my experience the current young generation is more willing to trade money for QoL , and quit when they feel QoL is bad, than the previous one.
- wannacboatmovie 2y ago
  > Is it possible that these RTO policies are actually meant to select for younger people and force others to resign? After all older people have more responsibilities outside of work like children How did the last 40 years of tech do it? Were the boomers that invented all this stuff resigning left and right or not have children? Did I misread history about Bill Gates sleeping in his office or did he run MS from his kitchen table?
  - asciimov 2y ago
    They got offices with doors that shut and had access to secretaries for office tasks. Also, homes were much more affordable in desirable locations.
    - wannacboatmovie 2y ago
      I would fully support going back to offices with doors. Unfortunately the tech companies and newer generations brought us open plan offices (because they're more social!) and made secretary an offensive word. Now I live in a world where you don't know how to properly address the lady that books your travel.
      - ciceryadam 2y ago
        In all but my first job there was no such lady. It was my responsibility to book my own travel, mostly through some clone of Concur.
    - usr1106 2y ago
      I am in the lucky situation having worked more years in offices than open floor, last time 2018. The doors were only shut before 1995, never after that. I was typically the only one who turned his desk towards the door, so I could chat with people coming in and also show that people can come in. It was so much more productive to work as a developer compared to open space. Nowadays I go to the office (open space) only during evening hours when at most 2 hackers are there. Working from home probably not productive when you have smaller kids. Maybe good for the kids though.
- asciimov 2y ago
  > Is it possible that these RTO policies are actually meant to select for younger people and force others to resign? Yes, these policies are quiet layoffs.
- seadan83 2y ago
  How do we know there would be a selection for younger people? Someone with a family is perhaps less inclined to change jobs. Someone older is more likely to have health issues or a dependent with health issues, which is an even stronger disincentive to change jobs. It is still not a great job market AFAIK, quitting at the moment is not going to guarantee a new job is available. Perhaps something of a corollary of the saying, don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. The Amazon senior folks making these decisions almost certainly have reasons. If people quit, maybe they just don't care who it is. I really wonder if they AB tested RTO. Given it is Amazon, I would put a small wager they have. Further, the impact between middle managers and individual contributors is uneven in remote work. The article mentioned there was a desire to reduce management. Remote work was an interesting experiment IMO to show the (lack of) effectiveness of middle management. Perhaps the impact to ICs is negative, but the middle management can be more effective. Arguably that would give greater "focus" on the specific KPIs desired by the VP level. Again, would be super fascinating to know the data used by Amazon here, of if this is a rare decision truly made by fiat alone. Others have mentioned Amazon's real estate holdings. I kinda think that is likely. Amazon made huge investments to stop leasing offices and to build and own their own offices. If nobody is there, the surrounding neighborhood is devalued, in turn devaluing the offices further. It would be s considerable loss on paper. ICs perhaps are about as effective in office under a whip compared to remote, and if some quit - then maybe all the better to reduce head count.
Salgat 2y ago
Same here. I can do all my family errands when I want and plan around them. The best part, at least with the company's interest, is that I work when I feel most productive. Usually 3 hours in the morning, along with a few hours in the evening, I even often work weekends like this. And guess what? During these programming periods, I'm at my most productive. Force me into an office where I'm forced to synch with the office's schedule, and met with constant noise and interruption from others, and my productivity is maybe half.
- dickersnoodle 2y ago
  Same for me, and my mood is worse from having to reset when I'm thinking through a tricky architecture problem and Foghorn Leghorn in the next office is talking at the top of his lungs on speakerphone.
  - Freak_NL 2y ago
    That actually sounds amusing — for about fifteen minutes, before developing a sudden all-consuming hate for all things poultry. “Now what — I say! — what's the big idea bashin' me on the noggin' with a rollin' pin!”

by keyle 2y ago

hellweaver666 2y ago

Same here, thanks to me working from home my wife has been able to return to work (she's a teacher) which has given us more income (and less costs!) and massively improved our financial position!

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

Is it possible that these RTO policies are actually meant to select for younger people and force others to resign? After all older people have more responsibilities outside of work like children and cannot work through Amazon’s meat grinder or do things like support brutal on call cycles. They’re also the ones with bigger commutes and other barriers to RTO, since they probably live away from city cores to buy houses and have space for a family. Meanwhile young people who live in the middle of downtowns in apartments that are near their work probably are unaffected by this kind of change.

linotype 2y ago
Going into the office still sucks even if it’s right next door. The noise from open office floor plans isn’t healthy.
- zer0zzz 2y ago
  My previous job actually had nice offices, and a pretty cohesive team culture. I still think work from home 2-3 days a week would have been better just to avoid the commute.
JambalayaJimbo 2y ago
Career focused younger people have also been adversely affected by wfh for the last few years in a big way. All the mentorship and networking opportunities have withered. The non career focused younger people are living it up though.
- cebert 2y ago
  What prevents them from networking remotely and scheduling coffee chats? That seems like a weak excuse.
  - TuringNYC 2y ago
    It works to an extent. True bonding comes from being shoulder to shoulder in extreme situations under shared duress.
    - NikolaNovak 2y ago
      As long as we understand that "true bonding" is preciously close to "no true Scotsman galaxy" :-) Let's stop pretending that remote work is new. I've worked remotely on and off from the beginning of my career. Majority of my mentors have been remote, at least two of whom I've never met "on real life" - one of whom shared tremendous technical experience over 18 months we worked together three provinces away, other who has taught me corporate life and consulting skills from four provinces away (I'm in Canada, think states:). I've spent four years as ops manager recently on a troubled project and I agree thay extreme situations under shared duress can build a specific, very strong kind of bond (not the only kind, mind you!). It's just that physical presence is completely orthogonal to it. I have a hard time believing all this concern is for "young generation and their social and mentoring opportunities". Young generation grew up with remote and social networking infused in their lives (for better or for worse, separate conversation :)! If a senior person doesn't know how to mentor or communicate remote, let's be upfront on that and discuss it openly and coach them. But let's not blame the "juniors" for that :-).
    - JadeNB 2y ago
      > It works to an extent. True bonding comes from being shoulder to shoulder in extreme situations under shared duress. People say this, but "this is the kind of true bonding experiences with which I'm familiar" isn't the same as "this is the only way true bonding can occur." I'm certainly old enough to remember the dismissive scoffing in the '90s that true friendships are made only in person, not with people online.
maeil 2y ago
Do you know of any statistics that back this? I could see it be the other way around, or various factors balancing each other out. From my experience the current young generation is more willing to trade money for QoL , and quit when they feel QoL is bad, than the previous one.
wannacboatmovie 2y ago
> Is it possible that these RTO policies are actually meant to select for younger people and force others to resign? After all older people have more responsibilities outside of work like children How did the last 40 years of tech do it? Were the boomers that invented all this stuff resigning left and right or not have children? Did I misread history about Bill Gates sleeping in his office or did he run MS from his kitchen table?
- asciimov 2y ago
  They got offices with doors that shut and had access to secretaries for office tasks. Also, homes were much more affordable in desirable locations.
  - wannacboatmovie 2y ago
    I would fully support going back to offices with doors. Unfortunately the tech companies and newer generations brought us open plan offices (because they're more social!) and made secretary an offensive word. Now I live in a world where you don't know how to properly address the lady that books your travel.
    - ciceryadam 2y ago
      In all but my first job there was no such lady. It was my responsibility to book my own travel, mostly through some clone of Concur.
  - usr1106 2y ago
    I am in the lucky situation having worked more years in offices than open floor, last time 2018. The doors were only shut before 1995, never after that. I was typically the only one who turned his desk towards the door, so I could chat with people coming in and also show that people can come in. It was so much more productive to work as a developer compared to open space. Nowadays I go to the office (open space) only during evening hours when at most 2 hackers are there. Working from home probably not productive when you have smaller kids. Maybe good for the kids though.
asciimov 2y ago
> Is it possible that these RTO policies are actually meant to select for younger people and force others to resign? Yes, these policies are quiet layoffs.
seadan83 2y ago
How do we know there would be a selection for younger people? Someone with a family is perhaps less inclined to change jobs. Someone older is more likely to have health issues or a dependent with health issues, which is an even stronger disincentive to change jobs. It is still not a great job market AFAIK, quitting at the moment is not going to guarantee a new job is available. Perhaps something of a corollary of the saying, don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. The Amazon senior folks making these decisions almost certainly have reasons. If people quit, maybe they just don't care who it is. I really wonder if they AB tested RTO. Given it is Amazon, I would put a small wager they have. Further, the impact between middle managers and individual contributors is uneven in remote work. The article mentioned there was a desire to reduce management. Remote work was an interesting experiment IMO to show the (lack of) effectiveness of middle management. Perhaps the impact to ICs is negative, but the middle management can be more effective. Arguably that would give greater "focus" on the specific KPIs desired by the VP level. Again, would be super fascinating to know the data used by Amazon here, of if this is a rare decision truly made by fiat alone. Others have mentioned Amazon's real estate holdings. I kinda think that is likely. Amazon made huge investments to stop leasing offices and to build and own their own offices. If nobody is there, the surrounding neighborhood is devalued, in turn devaluing the offices further. It would be s considerable loss on paper. ICs perhaps are about as effective in office under a whip compared to remote, and if some quit - then maybe all the better to reduce head count.

Salgat 2y ago

Same here. I can do all my family errands when I want and plan around them. The best part, at least with the company's interest, is that I work when I feel most productive. Usually 3 hours in the morning, along with a few hours in the evening, I even often work weekends like this. And guess what? During these programming periods, I'm at my most productive. Force me into an office where I'm forced to synch with the office's schedule, and met with constant noise and interruption from others, and my productivity is maybe half.

dickersnoodle 2y ago
Same for me, and my mood is worse from having to reset when I'm thinking through a tricky architecture problem and Foghorn Leghorn in the next office is talking at the top of his lungs on speakerphone.
- Freak_NL 2y ago
  That actually sounds amusing — for about fifteen minutes, before developing a sudden all-consuming hate for all things poultry. “Now what — I say! — what's the big idea bashin' me on the noggin' with a rollin' pin!”